Persecution in Germany: An Interview with Hans Guenther
Agent Tim (a.k.a. Tim Sweetman) and I recently had the opportunity to “sit down” with American expatriate, and good friend, Hans Guenther.
Hans lives in Germany with his parents and siblings. His father, Rich Guenther, is the director of School Instruction at Home, the German equivalent of HSLDA (Home School Legal Defense). Serving his parents as a secretary in their endeavors to legalize homeschooling, Hans graciously consented to the interview, giving us an inside look at the current situation for homeschoolers in Germany.
Agent Tim, a highly recommended fellow blogger, has been following the developments in Germany on his blog, where further information can be found here.
The Rebelution (TR): To begin, would you be able to share with us a brief history of your family’s involvement in the homeschool movement in Germany?
Hans Guenther (HG): My parents, Richard and Ingrid Guenther, were early homeschool pioneers in Oregon, and saw the need for legalizing home education in Germany. Together with HSLDA’s senior council, Christopher Klicka, and several other attorneys, they founded the legal organization Schulunterricht zu Hause e.V. (Schuzh) [School Instruction at Home]. The organization was formed to provide legal help for homeschool families in Germany. My parents’ involvement with Schuzh has since become a family ministry. We have been serving the German homeschool community for over ten years.
TR: Would you be able to give us a brief introduction to the current political situation in Germany and Europe? Are there any distinctive features of the German government that are relevant to our topic?
HG: Germany is a constitutional democracy similar to the United States. Something most people fail to recognize is the fact that East Germany and Russia had good constitutions throughout their socialistic regimes. However, in order for a constitution to be effective, the courts of the land must uphold it. When the courts fail to uphold the constitution, the people lose their rights. Germany is often said to have a post-democratic statism, a government that manages its citizens. The interests of society override individual rights. Since Germany is the most influential country of the European Union, the development in Germany is very significant and dangerous for the rest of Europe.
On a side note, we have an election coming up here in Germany this month (Sept. 18) and both parties are socially more liberal than the American Democratic party. Openly. The only party that is socially conservative gets less than 1% of the vote.
Agent Tim (AT): Quoting from an interview I did with a German last month “According to our Basic Law the State is the guardian overlooking the parents’ performance in their upbringing and education of their children and especially over the whole schoolsystem. This includes that also the State has a constitutional duty for the education of children. So the State can interfere with the parents’ right to education.” What’s your opinion of this statement?
HG: That is a [Court] interpretation. According to the German Constitution, the parents have the right to choose the education of their children. While the State has the duty to oversee the school system, it is unconstitutional for the state to determine the education of the children against the educational goals of the parents. The Constitution ensures that the parents have the primary duty to educate their children. Unfortunately, Germany’s Constitutional Court interprets the obligation of the state to include mandatory school attendance.
TR: What are some of the primary reasons why Christian parents are so adamant in educating their children independent of the government school system?
HG: Christian homeschool parents became aware of the immoral social contents and new teaching methods in the schools. Others see that the schools cannot fulfill the academic needs of their children. The teachers insist on their own methods and agenda including immorality and occultism, opposing the educational goals of Christian parents. Mobbing and violence in the schools is also a great concern.
[Note from The Rebelution: Further information on the shocking state of the government schools can be found here and here.]
AT: I know that, according to law, it’s illegal to homeschool. What steps would we take to change the law, and even the constitution? Is it possible?
HG: As I said, the Constitution or federal law does not need to be changed. All school laws are left up to the individual states. While all 16 states have adopted mandatory school attendance laws, most of them have a clear exemption clause. The officials may legally grant exemption should an important enough reason be given. The problem is that the authorities refuse to grant this exemption. Religious reasons are not an acceptable argument, even though the Constitution guarantees a freedom of religion and conscience.
TR: How bad is the persecution against homeschoolers in Germany today?
HG: Generally speaking, the government first applies financial pressure by issuing tremendous fines of up to hundreds of thousands of euros [Note: 1 euro = $1.24]. The next step often taken is taking the child by police force to school. Most families comply or leave the country before this takes place. In some cases, the state takes the custody of the children away from the parents, forcing the child to live in a foster home. In such instances, the state typically refuses to inform the parents of their child’s whereabouts. The authorities argue, and judges affirm, that a child cannot develop properly apart from public school attendance.
AT: Is there really a feeling of animosity towards homeschoolers in Germany? Or is it just “concern for the kids”?
HG: There is a strong animosity towards Christian convictions in general. The society here is extremely secular. According to most Germans, homeschooling parents misuse the custody of their children by denying them school attendance. There is a fear of religious parents keeping their children at home in order to indoctrinate them. The idea is to integrate all children into society and society’s standards. Most Germans believe that, apart from the school system, a child cannot develop properly and will not fit into today’s society.
TR: What are the Christians in Germany doing? Are they protesting the government’s treatment of home educators?
HG: Good question. What we have in Germany is a collapse of traditional family values, even in Christian circles. Even though many Christians are dissatisfied with the school system, they are afraid their children would not be qualified for life without school. There are only 75 Christian schools in all of Germany, all of which use state curriculum and fulfill the state’s educational goals. So there is no real alternative to public school. On a large scale, Christians are closing their eyes to reality. However, Schuzh has been successful in persuading many major publications to publish positive articles on homeschooling. Christians learning about the government’s unreasonable actions taken against homeschoolers, as is happening now in Paderborn, are slowly beginning to show sympathy to the cause.
AT: Would you say that the actions by the government are “control of society”?
HG: The government is enforcing integration. In their own words, multiculturalism is over, now everyone must integrate into the society. The government defines the societal values.
TR: Now, is the situation with homeschoolers in Germany receiving much media attention in Germany or the United States?
HG: Schuzh constantly receives requests from major TV stations, newspapers and magazines. We supply them as much as we can. Most homeschool families wish to remain underground. Germany’s top TV show invited a very well versed homeschool mother. The national press, which has been surprisingly open-minded, is eager to explore the issue. Local press, agitated by the government, tends to slander Christian homeschoolers.
AT: As for media coverage… [Assuming it is anti-homeschoolers.] What can we do to change that? What’s our action plan?
HG: As I said, the national media coverage has been relatively neutral or even positive. We continue to work with them. Our main problem has been government interference with the media.
TR: What are the most important steps that concerned, Christian young people in the United States can take to support your efforts to legalize homeschooling in Germany?
HG: Other than through prayer, I really am not sure what to tell you. American homeschoolers need to continue to be an example for the rest of the world and strive for excellence. Through you, we have the statistics. For example, Dr. Brian Ray’s study, Homeschooling Grows Up, has been very effective in raising interest in and arguing our case. Through you, we have proof that homeschooling works. You must continue to lead the way.
[Continue to Hans Guenther’s guest post, Visual Onslaught: A Diversion of Focus.]
September 2nd, 2005 at 5:26 am
“There is a fear of religious parents keeping their children at home in order to indoctrinate them. The idea is to integrate all children into society and societys standards. Most Germans believe that, apart from the school system, a child cannot develop properly and will not fit into todays society.”
That sentence is horrifying. Arguably Americas greatest president Abraham Lincoln was educated at home! When a nation believes that the government of said nation can educate its children better then the parents of that land, it takes away the God-given parental place of teaching.
Prov 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it.
Train up a child in the way he SHOULD GO, not always the way the government wants him to go, but the way he SHOULD go. This is the command and responsiblity that God gave to parents as a childs chief authority. The communists have long taken the idea of child indoctrenation as one of thier greatest pillers. May homeschoolers find favor in the eyes of their government and be allowed to follow the Lord leading in thier life. May they be as Danial was, people who know when to make a humble appeal and when to humbly and respectfully disobey.
The Blogging Boy Scout,
Travis
September 2nd, 2005 at 2:37 pm
Arguably West Germany’s greatest chancelor, Konrad Adenauer, was educated at home as well. Mandetory school attendance laws in Germany were first adopted durring the Third Reich.
September 2nd, 2005 at 3:03 pm
Sounds like a big step backwards towards a free country if you ask me. As was pointed out above…sounds a lot like the Third Reich.
Marshall
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September 6th, 2005 at 5:23 am
Great interview. I gave you a link today on my blog. I hope this get’s a wider audience.
spunky
September 6th, 2005 at 10:49 am
I am the other German Agent Tim interviewed and that quote in one question is mine. Therefore I offer a further comment on it:
The wording of the relevant Article is Care for and education of children are the natural rights of the parents and especially their duty. The State community watches over their use. The founders of our Basic Law obviously planned that the State should be involved in childrens care and education as a guardian who controls the parents behaviour. (This does not mean that I think this is good!)
If that includes a constitutional duty for the education of children and the State can interfere with the parents right to education, may be interpretation. It is definitely the interpretation the Constitutional Court holds at the moment. IMO, it would be a lot safer to change the wording of the Basic Law (difficult) and I still think it might even be necessary at least for a safe legal basis for homeschooling.
I’m glad that the bad situation here in Germany for homeschoolers gets more attention. Interesting interview even thougth Hans and I might not agree on every aspect.
And a very interesting blog you have here!
September 6th, 2005 at 6:51 pm
Thank you, Jeannine. I read the entirety of your interview with Agent Tim. I appreciate your taking the time to comment on the interview.
I believe Hans will be giving his response to what you’ve said at some point. However, I would like to add my own thoughts to the mix.
You said that the article in question states: “Care for and education of children are the natural rights of the parents and especially their duty. The State community watches over their use.” I assume this is an accurate translation.
Regarding the interpretation of the Constitutional Court, I do not believe there is any disagreement as to what they believe the article to mean. The question is whether their interpretation is correct.
From my own reading of the article, it would appear to be quite a stretch to argue that the state has ultimate jurisdiction and control over the care and education of children. The emphasis of the article is clearly on the parents’ duty and right, not the government’s control or oversight. For the second statement, “The State community watches over their use,” to mean, “The State community dictates and controls their use,” effectively negates any significance of the first statement.
I would therefore argue that the correct interpretation would be one that understands the family and the state to be two separate spheres of government (the other spheres would be individual and church government). Each sphere is granted specific and limited jurisdiction. This is an even deeper, and I believe, more important, understanding of the “separation of powers.” The separation is not just within spheres of government, but between spheres of government.
With this separation, there is also an interdependence… For the sake of time I will not address that now. Instead, I would focus on what is most important to our own discussion here, and that is the mutually corrective role the government spheres provide.
When individuals break covenant in one sphere of government, authorities in another sphere can take corrective action. If a child acts irresponsibly, breaking the covenant in the sphere of individual government, authorities in the sphere of family, church, or state government may take corrective action, depending on the nature of the irresponsibility.
Likewise, if a parent exceeds the jurisdictional boundaries of family government, for example, by sexually abusing a child, state government may sanction the parent for child abuse in a temporal court of justice. If the parent is a member of a local church, the government of that church may also sanction them in a spiritual court.
These mutually corrective jurisdiction may be understood as “check and balances” among governments. This, in my opinion, was what is meant by, “The State community watches over their use.”
If the parent breaks a civil law in his “care and education” of his children, such as by abusing them, the State is responsible to take corrective action.
The error in Germany then, is to uphold laws that mandate children attending government schools… And for the courts to uphold such laws as constitutional. Such laws exceed the jurisdictional boundaries of state government, and are blatantly unconstitutional.
September 7th, 2005 at 10:37 am
Alex, I commend you for recognizing the German situation so clearly.
Dr. Ronald Reichert, an associate of Redeker, a highly renowned German constitutional law office in Bonn, was a speaker at our national conference last year and affirmed that the Basic Law does not need to be changed and in fact, speaks in our favor. This is the conclusion all of our lawyers have come to, and is not merely my personal opinion.
You can find a transcript of Reichert’s speech here, unfortunately only in German: http://www.schuzh.de/artikel.php?l=de&art=20.
Of course, as Jeannine says, it would be safer to have a clause in the Basic Law that specifically guarantees parents the right to homeschool, as does Austria. However, our existing laws are sufficient and, according to Reichert and other lawyers, give parents the duty and right to determine the education of their children. The supervision given to the state does not imply interference as long as the parents fulfill their obligations. In addition, Article 4 guarantees the undisturbed practice of religion.
September 7th, 2005 at 3:40 pm
Thanks for clarifying Alex and Hans! I am in the process of writing an artilce to submit to some magazines, and was in need that info. Thanks for providing it.
Tim
September 7th, 2005 at 6:09 pm
Thank you, Hans. I would further alert those of you who are interested in reading Dr. Riechert’s speech, to try the following:
http://www.freetranslation.com/web.htm
Set it to German to English and it will give a far-from-perfect, but good-enough-to-give-you-the-general-idea translation.
That’s great, Tim. Be sure to let us know if/when those articles are published.
September 8th, 2005 at 10:10 am
Hans,
I know that Dr. Reichert (Redeker) is very active helping homeschoolers. I always thought that very very good. (I am actually in Bonn.)
I also know his opinion (I have to read the speach, thanks so much for the link). But unfortunately so far he and his clients have lost all law suits. The Constitutional Court did not even decide about the last constitutional complaint but only decided about its admissibility (a little substantive reasoning in there, though). The link to that reasoning is in my interview with Agent Tim.
I am just concerned that as long as the major legal opinion (including the judges of the constitutional court) stays “hostile” to homeschooling, it will be very difficult to change the legal situation for the better without a clarification in our constitution.
Actually I hope reality will prove me wrong, but I still doubt it.