Very, very interesting. This again spawned some unique thoughts that point to myself, and cause me to question.

We’re all just as depraved as one another. Bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Hussien. They were born the same way as me. I have the same natural tendencies as they do.

However, I’m a Christian!

Or wait… Am I just a good actor? Do I use my faith merely as a way to get what I want? Or is my faith a cause for giving God what he wants….

I feel in my heart that I’m a good person: but it’s wrong. The heart is deceitful above all things, as you said. I’m not a good person. Even my best qualities, and my righteousnesses, are as filthy rags. Filthy, disease ridden, vomit soaked, rotting pieces of cloth. That’s the best side of me.

Hmm.

Much thinking you have inspired, dear Sirs. I shall go away thinking about this one for a long, long time.

The point that I keep stumbling over is your implication that because David has committed murder, it must be that he WASN’T saved. I don’t know whether or not you actually meant to imply this conclusion, but I suspect you did, and I find it ironic.

I think it is a natural human tendency to be appalled at someone who could do something as horrific as murder two other human beings, and it is equally natural to assume that someone like that must not have been saved. Yet you yourself have emphasized repeatedly how LITTLE difference there is between David and us. We are all capable of doing the same thing he did. Why, then, should we necessarily imply that David was (is) not saved, while we imply that we ARE saved?

True, he committed murder. But so did Moses and David. While I realize Calvinist thought emphasizes the importance of outward signs of grace, I don’t think we can necessarily look at this act in David’s life and conclude he is a lost man.

Thoughts? My apologies if I read something into your argument that you didn’t intend.

There, but for the grace of God, go I…”

Such a wonderful quote…

It’s also very interesting to note that his “Barn” project seems to be a “place to seek God’s face” where no parents are involved. It was probably just another place he could hook up with girls in by connected with them because of his “faith.”

I may talk about this more later, but what I’m seeing is a “double agent.” David, it seems, is like someone who learns a certain language, dresses right, then goes to that country where the language is spoken, and gets what he wants from that country.

He spoke “christianese” if you will, and used it for his own selfish purposes. And like deputyheadmistress said, you could see that these kids worshipped a God that gave to them. It was really all about the experience.

But I digress, and conclude by quoting something I said on my blog:

“I know a lot of kids who on the outside can be great. They don’t do wrong things (at least in the world’s standard) and are generally good kids. They can outwardly be “on fire” for Jesus. It all comes down to the heart, and what is really there.

We can have fakes everywhere. It’s funny, our church youth group has been talking about fakes—and I think it’s making a lot of people uncomfortable. But it’s good. It exposes the fakes, and it really pushes teens to make the choice and not sit on the fence anymore, or hide. They either need to hand their whole lives over to God, or none of it at all.”

But that is merely opinion. Only God knows the heart of man, and it could be very easy to slip into judgement, and easily block David out of our minds by saying ‘well, he wasn’t saved…’ when in reality, he may very well have been just as saved as any one of us here, prior to commiting obviously planned murder.

The circumstances point to his plotting.

I don’t know enough about the Moses incident, but from what I can tell, he didn’t murder anyone. He saved a slave.

But the David (how interesting, about the names) did kill the authority of the woman he was having a relationship with. Very, very interesting, the similarities.

King David, and David Ludwig, plotted the killing.
King David, and David Ludwig, killed out of unlawful desire of a woman.
King David, and David Ludwig, were considered to be among the elite of God’s kingdom. (Ludwig knew the scripture).

What makes the difference, is that we know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that King David was totally repentent. David Ludwig hasn’t showed many signs of true repentance, but I don’t know him.

Like I said, we cannot judge his heart. But the bible says, kill a man, and be killed. The legal authorities have the duty of putting him to death. If he has repented, God will know, and he’ll be in a better place. If not, then we risk the chance of him killing others if he is left alive.

In the end though, every time we get angry with a brother without cause, we’re as guilty as David Ludwig. I shudder at that thought.

Marshall: Absolutely. Amen a thousand times.

Right on John, right on. That’s what really hits home.