Comments on: Playing Catch Up: Atheism, Predestination, Books, Music, Mice and Governmental Spheres http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/03/playing-catch-up-atheism-predestination-books-music-mice-and-governmental-spheres-2/ reb•e•lu•tion (reb’el lu shen) n. a teenage rebellion against low expectations Wed, 16 May 2012 17:22:15 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7.1 hourly 1 By: CJ Pine http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/03/playing-catch-up-atheism-predestination-books-music-mice-and-governmental-spheres-2/#comment-507648 CJ Pine Wed, 23 Sep 2009 06:43:36 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/?p=358#comment-507648 Alex, Your artile on predestination was very thought-provoking. My family has recently been discussing some of these issues and have listened to some of John Pipers sermon's on Calvinism, free will, predestination, etc.. I would say that I agree with your article as a whole but there were a couple parts that I would slightly disagree on. In section 5 of the article, you said: "A father often knows how his son will act under given circumstances and by controlling these he determines beforehand the course of action that the son follows, yet the son acts freely. If the father plans that the son shall be a doctor, he gives him encouragement along that line, persuades him to read certain books, to attend certain schools, and thus presents the necessary inducements so that his plan works out. In the same manner and to an infinitely greater extent, our omniscient and omnipotent God controls our actions so that they are certain although we act freely. His decree does not produce the event, but only renders its occurrence certain… " However, if the son really had free will. He would have the option of choosing not to become a doctor. Free will means that we always have the ability to do the opposite. Yet as Jonathan Edwards said we always act according the strongest inclination at the moment. So I believe this would mean that man really doesn’t have true free will. Because as in the analogy, the son would want to become a doctor yet he couldn’t choose otherwise because being a doctor would be his strongest inclination. Man is either a slave to sin or a slave to God. If a man is a slave to sin, he cannot please God (Rom 8:8). Yet I do not believe this makes man irresponsible. Erwin Lutzer said in his book, The Doctrines That Divide, “…. Fallen man acts voluntarily but not freely. There is a distinction. Freedom always means the ability to do the opposite – if man were really free, he could choose to live a completely righteous life on his own, or at least he could choose Christ on his own. But he cannot, so he is not free. But he does act voluntarily, that is, he acts according to his desires; he does whatever he wants to do. An alcoholic may not be free to quit drinking – he lacks free will in respect to this habit. Though his is not free, he does act voluntarily – he goes to the bar simply because he wants to. Fallen man therefore is largely self-determined; he is not forced into doing evil by external forces but does so voluntarily…The evil man’s desires arise out of his own heart.” Therefore I would say that instead of trying to find a nice sounding way of combining free will with God’s soverignity. We should accept that man does not have true “free” will, but he is still responsible for his sins, beause that is the way God decreed. Romans 9:19-21, “One of you will say to me: ‘Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?’ But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lunp of clay some for noble purposes and some from common use?” Sorry, for such a long comment. But these were just some of my thoughts. CJ Alex,

Your artile on predestination was very thought-provoking. My family has recently been discussing some of these issues and have listened to some of John Pipers sermon’s on Calvinism, free will, predestination, etc.. I would say that I agree with your article as a whole but there were a couple parts that I would slightly disagree on. In section 5 of the article, you said:

“A father often knows how his son will act under given circumstances and by controlling these he determines beforehand the course of action that the son follows, yet the son acts freely. If the father plans that the son shall be a doctor, he gives him encouragement along that line, persuades him to read certain books, to attend certain schools, and thus presents the necessary inducements so that his plan works out. In the same manner and to an infinitely greater extent, our omniscient and omnipotent God controls our actions so that they are certain although we act freely. His decree does not produce the event, but only renders its occurrence certain… ”

However, if the son really had free will. He would have the option of choosing not to become a doctor. Free will means that we always have the ability to do the opposite. Yet as Jonathan Edwards said we always act according the strongest inclination at the moment. So I believe this would mean that man really doesn’t have true free will. Because as in the analogy, the son would want to become a doctor yet he couldn’t choose otherwise because being a doctor would be his strongest inclination. Man is either a slave to sin or a slave to God. If a man is a slave to sin, he cannot please God (Rom 8:8). Yet I do not believe this makes man irresponsible. Erwin Lutzer said in his book, The Doctrines That Divide,

“…. Fallen man acts voluntarily but not freely. There is a distinction. Freedom always means the ability to do the opposite – if man were really free, he could choose to live a completely righteous life on his own, or at least he could choose Christ on his own. But he cannot, so he is not free. But he does act voluntarily, that is, he acts according to his desires; he does whatever he wants to do. An alcoholic may not be free to quit drinking – he lacks free will in respect to this habit. Though his is not free, he does act voluntarily – he goes to the bar simply because he wants to. Fallen man therefore is largely self-determined; he is not forced into doing evil by external forces but does so voluntarily…The evil man’s desires arise out of his own heart.”

Therefore I would say that instead of trying to find a nice sounding way of combining free will with God’s soverignity. We should accept that man does not have true “free” will, but he is still responsible for his sins, beause that is the way God decreed. Romans 9:19-21, “One of you will say to me: ‘Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?’ But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lunp of clay some for noble purposes and some from common use?”

Sorry, for such a long comment. But these were just some of my thoughts.

CJ

]]> By: Bryce http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/03/playing-catch-up-atheism-predestination-books-music-mice-and-governmental-spheres-2/#comment-1911 Bryce Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/?p=358#comment-1911 FYI, The link to the treatise on predestination leads to an unformatted page of text. I look forward to reading it. FYI, The link to the treatise on predestination leads to an unformatted page of text. I look forward to reading it.

]]> By: Alex Jordan Harris http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/03/playing-catch-up-atheism-predestination-books-music-mice-and-governmental-spheres-2/#comment-1912 Alex Jordan Harris Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/?p=358#comment-1912 Thanks for bringing that to my attention, Bryce. The link should work now. The problem was that it did not have the .doc extension on the end. If you changed that, even on the previously linked file, it works. Thanks for bringing that to my attention, Bryce. The link should work now. The problem was that it did not have the .doc extension on the end. If you changed that, even on the previously linked file, it works.

]]> By: billmelone http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/03/playing-catch-up-atheism-predestination-books-music-mice-and-governmental-spheres-2/#comment-1913 billmelone Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/?p=358#comment-1913 Really interesting stuff Alex, I wish I had been reading the stuff you are when I was a teen. I was wondering about stuff you wrote about in your papers (and maybe you've gotten feedback on this stuff originally, I don't know)--you argued for the rejection of atheism because of its failure in the categories of experiencing reality, and of logical consistency. But wouldn't you say that in many ways our experience of the issue of the will, and the logic of the calvinist position don't seem consistent? In the sense that we can't get outside our will to observe it objectively and its experience of decision making, and also that the calvinist position of allowing divine sovereignty and human responsibility to both stand at the same time is technically illogical? It just seems to me that with many things in the bible we can't produce an appropriate algorithm for the entire issue in words and so sometimes its odd to reject something because of its lack of logic (like with atheism). Really interesting stuff Alex, I wish I had been reading the stuff you are when I was a teen. I was wondering about stuff you wrote about in your papers (and maybe you’ve gotten feedback on this stuff originally, I don’t know)–you argued for the rejection of atheism because of its failure in the categories of experiencing reality, and of logical consistency. But wouldn’t you say that in many ways our experience of the issue of the will, and the logic of the calvinist position don’t seem consistent? In the sense that we can’t get outside our will to observe it objectively and its experience of decision making, and also that the calvinist position of allowing divine sovereignty and human responsibility to both stand at the same time is technically illogical? It just seems to me that with many things in the bible we can’t produce an appropriate algorithm for the entire issue in words and so sometimes its odd to reject something because of its lack of logic (like with atheism).

]]> By: Bryce http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/03/playing-catch-up-atheism-predestination-books-music-mice-and-governmental-spheres-2/#comment-1914 Bryce Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/?p=358#comment-1914 Alex, thank you for fixing the link. After reading your well-written treatise, I decided to link over to it. It thoroughly expresses truth on a subject which is so often misunderstood. Thanks for sharing it. Alex, thank you for fixing the link. After reading your well-written treatise, I decided to link over to it. It thoroughly expresses truth on a subject which is so often misunderstood. Thanks for sharing it.

]]> By: JennyAnyDots http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/03/playing-catch-up-atheism-predestination-books-music-mice-and-governmental-spheres-2/#comment-1915 JennyAnyDots Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/?p=358#comment-1915 My mother got to go and hear John Taylor Gatto speak; she really liked him. My mother got to go and hear John Taylor Gatto speak; she really liked him.

]]> By: Hannah Buell http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/03/playing-catch-up-atheism-predestination-books-music-mice-and-governmental-spheres-2/#comment-1916 Hannah Buell Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/?p=358#comment-1916 Hey Alex! I don't know if you remember me, but I met you and Brett at the CO National Open tournament last year. I had a question about your article on predestination. Would you say that Jesus only died for those he predestined, or the entire world? Thanks! -Hannah Buell Hey Alex!

I don’t know if you remember me, but I met you and Brett at the CO National Open tournament last year. I had a question about your article on predestination. Would you say that Jesus only died for those he predestined, or the entire world? Thanks!

-Hannah Buell

]]>