Comments on: The Big Misunderstanding http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/ reb•e•lu•tion (reb’el lu shen) n. a teenage rebellion against low expectations Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:10:48 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7.1 hourly 1 By: Jade http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-535748 Jade Wed, 24 Feb 2010 19:35:34 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-535748 Lots of spelling errors, Sorry!!!! Lots of spelling errors, Sorry!!!!

]]> By: Jade http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-535747 Jade Wed, 24 Feb 2010 19:34:30 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-535747 I can't believe there ae guys out there who care about stuf like this!!! My family is really into the idea that "women can do anything men can do" and I totally disagree with my family on this subject. I think that women are made to be delicate, feminine creaturs because that is the way God made us!!! :D I really respect a guy when he opens a door for me . You're doing an awsome job Alex and Brett! God Bless you! I can’t believe there ae guys out there who care about stuf like this!!! My family is really into the idea that “women can do anything men can do” and I totally disagree with my family on this subject. I think that women are made to be delicate, feminine creaturs because that is the way God made us!!! :D I really respect a guy when he opens a door for me . You’re doing an awsome job Alex and Brett! God Bless you!

]]> By: Maria http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-529340 Maria Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:32:58 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-529340 Dear Taylor, I can understand what you're saying (I think), but I'm wondering why you seem to think (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that all "singling out persons for differential treatment based on gender" is bad. I mean, of course, it CAN be bad; but I think it very much depends on the type of "differential treatment" taking place. For example, obviously, when it comes to things like voting and holding office in government, men and women ought to have equal rights-- that goes without saying. But I just think that, if we're treated EXACTLY the same in EVERYTHING-- not only will life get a lot less interesting, and, in my opinion, less fun-- but we might start to forget how very different we really are. "Equal" means having the same value; it doesn't just mean "the same". God made men and women equal, but he most definitely did not make them the same; they (we) are meant to COMPLEMENT each other, and that couldn't happen if we were exactly the same. Fortunately, we never will be exactly the same, no matter how "the same" we treat each other; those differences (and they go a LOT deeper than just physical) are there, wether we like it or not. But we might forget about them. That's why I think that chivalry and the whole tradition of gentleman and lady is so awesome! It doesn't let us forget. It's a small, shadowy, yet constant reminder that God didn't make men exactly the same as women, and he didn't make women exactly the same as men; it's a little, imperfect, yet beautiful picture of the complementarity (is that a word???) that God created us with, and a reminder that he has Plans for that complementarity-- even if we don't fully understand them and/or they aren't fully realized till we get to Heaven! I guess this all might not make much sense if you don't even believe in God. But I basically just wanted to say that differential treatment based on gender is not always bad-- it can, in fact, be good and beautiful. The gentleman-lady thing reminds us of our differences and complementarity ((I hope that's a word!!)). And I, for one, very much enjoy being reminded! God bless! Maria Dear Taylor,

I can understand what you’re saying (I think), but I’m wondering why you seem to think (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that all “singling out persons for differential treatment based on gender” is bad. I mean, of course, it CAN be bad; but I think it very much depends on the type of “differential treatment” taking place. For example, obviously, when it comes to things like voting and holding office in government, men and women ought to have equal rights– that goes without saying. But I just think that, if we’re treated EXACTLY the same in EVERYTHING– not only will life get a lot less interesting, and, in my opinion, less fun– but we might start to forget how very different we really are. “Equal” means having the same value; it doesn’t just mean “the same”. God made men and women equal, but he most definitely did not make them the same; they (we) are meant to COMPLEMENT each other, and that couldn’t happen if we were exactly the same. Fortunately, we never will be exactly the same, no matter how “the same” we treat each other; those differences (and they go a LOT deeper than just physical) are there, wether we like it or not. But we might forget about them. That’s why I think that chivalry and the whole tradition of gentleman and lady is so awesome! It doesn’t let us forget. It’s a small, shadowy, yet constant reminder that God didn’t make men exactly the same as women, and he didn’t make women exactly the same as men; it’s a little, imperfect, yet beautiful picture of the complementarity (is that a word???) that God created us with, and a reminder that he has Plans for that complementarity– even if we don’t fully understand them and/or they aren’t fully realized till we get to Heaven!

I guess this all might not make much sense if you don’t even believe in God. But I basically just wanted to say that differential treatment based on gender is not always bad– it can, in fact, be good and beautiful. The gentleman-lady thing reminds us of our differences and complementarity ((I hope that’s a word!!)). And I, for one, very much enjoy being reminded!

God bless!

Maria

]]> By: Taylor http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-524695 Taylor Mon, 04 Jan 2010 05:27:25 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-524695 Perceiving chivalrous actions as "gifts" towards women is superior to perceiving chivalrous actions as insults to women - at least on face value. However, this action still singles out persons for differential treatment based on gender. Chivalry, if it is indeed a gift, may be a "positive" act of discrimination, but it is still an act of discrimination. Chivalry is the affirmative action system of gender politics. Perceiving chivalrous actions as “gifts” towards women is superior to perceiving chivalrous actions as insults to women - at least on face value. However, this action still singles out persons for differential treatment based on gender. Chivalry, if it is indeed a gift, may be a “positive” act of discrimination, but it is still an act of discrimination. Chivalry is the affirmative action system of gender politics.

]]> By: J http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-520159 J Tue, 01 Dec 2009 05:49:04 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-520159 While I enjoy at least the basic concept of gentlemen and ladies and the broader idea of chivalry (in the sense of serving those in need and working for justice), I have to note that the reason for this 'misconception' can, at least in my mind, in part be traced to the way many people talk about women and men (check out Deborah Tannen's books for a thorough treatment of /that/ subject!). Often subtle undertones create an understanding that women are inferior. Notice that seemingly half the English insults to a man's strength imply that he is feminine in some way. The one that immediately comes to mind is commenting on a man's or boy's lack of athleticism by saying that he runs or throws 'like a girl' or that it's worse if boys are beaten in athletic competition by girls than by other boys. I think things like this insult everyone involved, ignoring the fact that people have different abilities or giftings - _people_ of all types, male or female. The young sons of a Xian friend of mine were joking recently that they were going to use a Barbie ball to hit other boys during a game of dodgeball and tease them that they'd been 'hit by a girl.' Sorry, I'm not laughing. This may be a small thing, but after a lifetime of dealing w/lots of small implications that I am _less_ because I'm _female_ I admit I'm oversensitive. I do at times let my male friends help with things, but notice I say friends - at this point it has an element of trust in it. I know there's a foundation of mutual respect there. Other times, you know, it's simply unnecessary and, as the previous poster mentioned, maybe I just want to carry my own things. I've always thought that old tradition of the woman waiting in the car for the man to come alllllllll the way around to open the door was a bit ridiculous - let's get going for goodness sake. Nothing against people opening doors for others - I do it whenever the opportunity presents itself - but sometimes the ceremony of things just gets in the way of life - of things that are truly more important. I like what you guys are doing here. I guess I have one caution that this issue makes me think of strongly, and that is not to confuse Godliness, righteousness, and issues of what/who is a man or woman of God, with some behaviors that truly are simply passed down from European culture -- it is not necessarily Christian; sometimes it is simply western culture. In the end, if you truly have love and respect for each person you meet, and are seeking God for wisdom in how to see them truly and serve them truly, then He will show you or give you that flash of insight. Sometimes the best way to serve, if that truly is your desire, is to let someone carry their own burden and walk beside them through it (figuratively and/or literally). But old cultural forms are not always the most helpful. Some of the ideas behind them are helpful, but the forms themselves have lost or changed their meaning in the new cultural context. A book that I truly enjoyed was Dorothy Sayers (short) book 'Are Women Human?' and I think it speaks much more clearly than I have here about the general issue anyway, if not specifically about carrying things. God's Blessings, -J While I enjoy at least the basic concept of gentlemen and ladies and the broader idea of chivalry (in the sense of serving those in need and working for justice), I have to note that the reason for this ‘misconception’ can, at least in my mind, in part be traced to the way many people talk about women and men (check out Deborah Tannen’s books for a thorough treatment of /that/ subject!). Often subtle undertones create an understanding that women are inferior. Notice that seemingly half the English insults to a man’s strength imply that he is feminine in some way. The one that immediately comes to mind is commenting on a man’s or boy’s lack of athleticism by saying that he runs or throws ‘like a girl’ or that it’s worse if boys are beaten in athletic competition by girls than by other boys. I think things like this insult everyone involved, ignoring the fact that people have different abilities or giftings - _people_ of all types, male or female. The young sons of a Xian friend of mine were joking recently that they were going to use a Barbie ball to hit other boys during a game of dodgeball and tease them that they’d been ‘hit by a girl.’ Sorry, I’m not laughing. This may be a small thing, but after a lifetime of dealing w/lots of small implications that I am _less_ because I’m _female_ I admit I’m oversensitive. I do at times let my male friends help with things, but notice I say friends - at this point it has an element of trust in it. I know there’s a foundation of mutual respect there. Other times, you know, it’s simply unnecessary and, as the previous poster mentioned, maybe I just want to carry my own things. I’ve always thought that old tradition of the woman waiting in the car for the man to come alllllllll the way around to open the door was a bit ridiculous - let’s get going for goodness sake. Nothing against people opening doors for others - I do it whenever the opportunity presents itself - but sometimes the ceremony of things just gets in the way of life - of things that are truly more important.

I like what you guys are doing here.
I guess I have one caution that this issue makes me think of strongly, and that is not to confuse Godliness, righteousness, and issues of what/who is a man or woman of God, with some behaviors that truly are simply passed down from European culture — it is not necessarily Christian; sometimes it is simply western culture. In the end, if you truly have love and respect for each person you meet, and are seeking God for wisdom in how to see them truly and serve them truly, then He will show you or give you that flash of insight. Sometimes the best way to serve, if that truly is your desire, is to let someone carry their own burden and walk beside them through it (figuratively and/or literally). But old cultural forms are not always the most helpful. Some of the ideas behind them are helpful, but the forms themselves have lost or changed their meaning in the new cultural context.

A book that I truly enjoyed was Dorothy Sayers (short) book ‘Are Women Human?’ and I think it speaks much more clearly than I have here about the general issue anyway, if not specifically about carrying things.
God’s Blessings,
-J

]]> By: Amy http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-515383 Amy Tue, 03 Nov 2009 04:00:11 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-515383 "Could I carry that for you? I know you could carry it by yourself, but I just want to serve you" To be honest, if someone said something like that to me, I'd think he was a little nutty. Overeager, at the least. And sometimes a woman has a good reason for wanting to do something for herself, and sometimes she feels she doesn't need to offer an explanation beyond "No, thanks." Maybe she's carrying something fragile or personal, and doesn't feel comfortable trusting anyone else with it, or maybe she has some need or desire to perform a task in solitude, or maybe she just prefers not to talk to men she doesn't know. Sometimes "No, thanks" is just "No, thanks". Help that's not wanted is no help at all. “Could I carry that for you? I know you could carry it by yourself, but I just want to serve you”

To be honest, if someone said something like that to me, I’d think he was a little nutty. Overeager, at the least. And sometimes a woman has a good reason for wanting to do something for herself, and sometimes she feels she doesn’t need to offer an explanation beyond “No, thanks.” Maybe she’s carrying something fragile or personal, and doesn’t feel comfortable trusting anyone else with it, or maybe she has some need or desire to perform a task in solitude, or maybe she just prefers not to talk to men she doesn’t know. Sometimes “No, thanks” is just “No, thanks”. Help that’s not wanted is no help at all.

]]> By: Kayli http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-504677 Kayli Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:31:52 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-504677 Great post!! What a great way of looking at it.... the right way of looking at it. Great post!! What a great way of looking at it…. the right way of looking at it.

]]> By: Heidi http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-501394 Heidi Tue, 18 Aug 2009 16:23:54 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-501394 Thank you so much for posting this series! It has been very thought-provoking. I am blessed to be surrounded by many very helpful gentleman. But I, like many of the girls who have commented, have never realized how many times I've said "No, thanks, I've got it." to a well meaning guy without thinking about the reason behind my refusal. Thank you for allowing God to teach and work through you both! Thank you so much for posting this series! It has been very thought-provoking. I am blessed to be surrounded by many very helpful gentleman. But I, like many of the girls who have commented, have never realized how many times I’ve said “No, thanks, I’ve got it.” to a well meaning guy without thinking about the reason behind my refusal.

Thank you for allowing God to teach and work through you both!

]]> By: Aravir http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-491830 Aravir Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:50:45 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-491830 Like Jamie (5th post down) my reason for refusing a young man's 'chivalrous' offer is usually because I wasn't sure if the offer came from the heart or flirtatiousness. And I'm not one to shun help either. While at a homeschool convention (of which my brothers did not attend) I would actually pause at doors and briefly wonder why they weren't opening, I had become so accustom to my brothers always being there for me! Like Jamie (5th post down) my reason for refusing a young man’s ‘chivalrous’ offer is usually because I wasn’t sure if the offer came from the heart or flirtatiousness.
And I’m not one to shun help either. While at a homeschool convention (of which my brothers did not attend) I would actually pause at doors and briefly wonder why they weren’t opening, I had become so accustom to my brothers always being there for me!

]]> By: Melody http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-491195 Melody Tue, 30 Jun 2009 00:40:10 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2006/09/the-big-misunderstanding/#comment-491195 Ive really enjoyed reading these speeches. Its made me look at my background and upbringing and how it has directed the way Ive responded to chivalry in guys. Growing up, I had a very abusive stepfather who'd do these sorts of things like opening doors and carrying things etc but wanted things to be done in return to him which were entirely innappropriate. As a girl growing into a woman this would have seriously negatively impacted on my perception of men had I not met my true father in heaven when I was 14. And even though the abuse continued til I left home for college, my spiritual daddy put other wonderful, caring and godly men in my life to demonstrate how women should be treated and I am grateful that I had the comparison so I could get out of that destructive pathway. Nowadays I have an immense respect for guys (young and old) who treat their wives, sisters and mothers this way and well as strangers. When you do this, you give hope to women who seek evidence of gentlemen in the world. The men who gave this hope to me as a young girl didnt even know who they were impacting. They didnt know what my home life was like, all they did was treat me with courtesy and respect. And for that I thankfully love them as a sister and daughter in Christ. I hope my wee story provides motivation to all guys out there, when you are a gentleman you are impacting not only on the woman you are serving but also on those who witness what you are doing. And that is a blessing. Ive really enjoyed reading these speeches. Its made me look at my background and upbringing and how it has directed the way Ive responded to chivalry in guys.
Growing up, I had a very abusive stepfather who’d do these sorts of things like opening doors and carrying things etc but wanted things to be done in return to him which were entirely innappropriate. As a girl growing into a woman this would have seriously negatively impacted on my perception of men had I not met my true father in heaven when I was 14. And even though the abuse continued til I left home for college, my spiritual daddy put other wonderful, caring and godly men in my life to demonstrate how women should be treated and I am grateful that I had the comparison so I could get out of that destructive pathway.
Nowadays I have an immense respect for guys (young and old) who treat their wives, sisters and mothers this way and well as strangers. When you do this, you give hope to women who seek evidence of gentlemen in the world. The men who gave this hope to me as a young girl didnt even know who they were impacting. They didnt know what my home life was like, all they did was treat me with courtesy and respect. And for that I thankfully love them as a sister and daughter in Christ.

I hope my wee story provides motivation to all guys out there, when you are a gentleman you are impacting not only on the woman you are serving but also on those who witness what you are doing. And that is a blessing.

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