Announcement: The Modesty Survey
The Modesty Survey is an anonymous discussion between Christian guys and girls who care about modesty. Hundreds of Christian girls submitted their questions and over 1,600 Christian guys (of all ages) submitted 150,000+ answers—including over 25,000 text responses. The results will be released on St. Valentine’s Day.
The Modesty Survey Story
The Modesty Survey began when two girls on The Rebelution Forums separately suggested an anonymous discussion on modesty between members of the Guys Only forum (The Garage) and members of the Girls Only forum (The Attic).
15-year-old Katrina Rowe was the inspirational force behind the idea, agreeing to oversee preliminary data collection and inviting girls in the Attic to submit their questions for the guys. In little more than a week, she received over 360 questions from hundreds of Christians girls around the world.
The overwhelming response to the idea of a modesty discussion confirmed its importance. Some Christian girls have fathers or brothers to provide godly input on their attire, but many more have none. Many girls seem oblivious to the destructive effects of immodest attire on their brothers in Christ. Others desire to honor God and to protect their brothers, but don’t know where to start.
As we began to process and organize the questions, we immediately realized the need for a secure survey system to collect and track guys’ answers. 18-year-old David Boskovic, our entire IT Department, developed the system from scratch.
Work continued. Candace Perry of Purity Girls joined the team as a consultant, sharing her experience with modesty surveys with us newcomers. Meanwhile, Sarah Harris (our dear sister) coordinated the tracking down of definitions and tasteful photo-illustrations for almost every item of clothing in the survey.
The Modesty Survey launched on January 8th and remained open until January 28th. Again, the response was overwhelming. Over 1,500 Christian guys (12-50+) submitted 160,000 answers—including over 25,000 text responses.
Results to be Released on St. Valentine’s Day
One of the purposes of The Modesty Survey is to allow Christian guys to express their gratitude to their sisters in Christ who strive to dress modestly—to let them know that their efforts are both noticed and appreciated by their brothers in Christ.
To symbolize this, we will be releasing the survey results on February 14th, St. Valentine’s Day, as a gift to all Christian girls, and especially to those whose inner qualities of godliness, humility, and love express themselves in their outward attire.
What You Can Do Now
Pray for The Modesty Survey. The survey has closed, but there is much work yet to be done. Over 160,000 answers and 25,000 text responses must be processed and finalized. Pray for the Survey Team as we continue to work. Pray that God would give us wisdom and discernment as we make decisions. Pray that God will use The Modesty Survey powerfully, to glorify His name and to bless His children.
Keep reading the blog. Over the next two weeks, we plan to post special articles and resources on the topic of modesty. We may even share some of the best text responses from the survey itself. You won’t want to miss these posts.
Spread the word. Tell your friends about the The Modesty Survey. The more people who hear about it, the more who will, we pray, be blessed and equipped by the results. Word-of-mouth is the best way to spread the word, but if you want, you can also place a snazzy ad on your website or blog.
Finally, if you are a Christian guy, whether you participated in The Modesty Survey or not, your greatest contribution to this effort may be to sign the Modesty Survey Petition—and it will take just seconds of your time.
Additional Modesty Resources
- The Soul of Modesty: C.J. Mahaney’s heart-focused, grace-filled, gospel-centered audio message on the topic of modesty. Made specially available for free download by Sovereign Grace Ministries.
- The Responsibility of Modesty (Part 1): Excerpted from the not-yet-released survey results, a 20-year-old Christian man shares a powerful summation of men’s responsibility in this area.
- The Responsibility of Modesty (Part 2): Excerpted from the not-yet-released survey results, a 22-year-old Christian man shares an insightful analogy explaining the responsibility of women to protect their brothers in Christ.
- The Purpose of Clothing: John Piper explains both the negative and positive messages God communicated by clothing Adam and Eve after they fell into sin.
December 2nd, 2006 at 11:34 pm
Would you gentlemen consider making a little AD like your flashing Rebelution AD to put on the side bar of blogs? This could prove to be beneficial in getting the word out.
December 3rd, 2006 at 12:43 am
well now, this is truly crazy. modesty survey? don’t waste your time, preach jesus! not clothing regulations. typical american christians!
December 3rd, 2006 at 4:40 am
This is a great idea. Thank you so much for doing it.
December 3rd, 2006 at 6:14 am
Wow, what an awesome idea guys! I’ve already emailed this to all of my friends. I think it will be such a great way to discuss the issue of modesty in a non-threatening way. Thanks so much for doing it!
December 3rd, 2006 at 8:44 am
Great idea!
Modesty is not simply “clothing regulations” as Danny put it. The attraction God created between a guy and gal is truly wonderful and amazing. If we don’t take necessary measures to combat lust (those good attractions twisted into evil), we ruin those good things God designed. Immodest clothing leaves open doors for lust. Thus, modesty is critically important to combat lust -something our culture is corruptly preoccupied with.
This is a great way to allow communication between brothers and sisters in Christ so that we can help one another in this area.
Like Erin’s mom said, if you could put out a code for us use on our xangas, myspace, etc. it would help get word out about this whole site. Thanks!
December 3rd, 2006 at 8:49 am
Erin’s Mom: That’s a great idea. I’ll see if we can put one together in the next few days.
Danny: It is always our goal to take everything back to Jesus and the Cross. The topic of modesty is not unrelated to Christ, it just falls under the category of discipleship, rather than evangelism. This is why the Apostle Paul addresses it in one of his pastoral epistles — namely, his first letter to Timothy.
December 3rd, 2006 at 9:09 am
THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart for this!
It will be wonderful. I am greatful that I have always been brought up to dress very modestly, and I often get questions from girls who don’t kind understand the concept. So this will be great for them, but also for me too!
December 3rd, 2006 at 10:00 am
Just so you know I wasn’t Caleb.
I’m Caleb Gage. 
December 3rd, 2006 at 12:24 pm
Great Idea!
I cannot wait to see what God will do through this survey, maybe this will help start a “rebelution” in the dress of todays women young and old alike.
You have my support in any way I can help.
Your Brother in Christ,
Joshua
December 3rd, 2006 at 12:41 pm
So if we already posted our questions in the Attic, then will those automatically be in consideration for including in the survey, or will we have to email them to Katrina? Is the email thing just for those who aren’t part of the forums?
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:01 pm
I could help set up the polling system.
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:13 pm
Elisabeth: I can answer your question . I already have the questions in the Attic. You only have to e-mail them if you aren\’t part of the forum.
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:14 pm
Sorry, I didn’t get my BBCode right.
December 3rd, 2006 at 6:54 pm
This is great guys! I’m definitely linking it to my blog, so young ladies in my neck of the woods will be able to ask some valuable questions!
December 3rd, 2006 at 7:39 pm
I do think this is an important topic, thanks so much for starting the survey.
December 3rd, 2006 at 9:24 pm
This is a very good apportunity to discuss a very important subject! In our modern age, modesty just gets thrown out the window. I am very glad to contribute a list of questions for the survey. : )
December 4th, 2006 at 1:02 am
I really admire the great work you guys are doing. It is wonderful to see two young men stand up for their beliefs and try and make a difference in the world. I put your side bar in my blog. Oh, have you read the book RETURN TO MODESY? I heard it is really good. I gotta still get a copy. Best Wishes.
- A fellow Christian
December 4th, 2006 at 6:24 am
Thank you both for making this opportunity availible. All of us in The Attic are very appreciative of the work you are going to, to make this possible. So, on behalf of us all, thanks a ton!
December 4th, 2006 at 6:31 am
I cannot wait!!
December 4th, 2006 at 8:34 am
Wow thanks. Ever heard of a girl who didn’t like to shop? It can be frustrating guess work wanting to look good (neatly dressed and nice) while also modest. And everyone oppions of what’s what, vary’s so much! I think hearing from the guys side would be helpfull.
December 4th, 2006 at 8:38 am
Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful! Just what we all need. Thank you.
December 4th, 2006 at 8:55 am
This is wonderful! Thank you so much for doing this!
December 4th, 2006 at 10:07 am
I gotta tell you….
this is a great idea!
December 4th, 2006 at 10:12 am
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December 4th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
This is an awesome idea, girls need to hear alot of answers like this, thanks for doing this
December 4th, 2006 at 1:27 pm
Will we be able to read all the questions or will we only receive answers to our own?
December 4th, 2006 at 1:32 pm
Ruth F: You will be able to read all the questions.
December 4th, 2006 at 3:16 pm
Will every one be able to read the questions and answers on your blog, or do they have to be on the forum to view them?
December 4th, 2006 at 4:28 pm
What a wonderful idea. I’m glad to see this discussed in a challenging, yet positive way. s need to take action, but they also need some basic guidelines. In truth, we often don’t realize that some of the things we wear can cause men to stumble. It is so hard for s to know what to wear and how to be attractive without being immodest. I am so glad to see you tackling a topic that is for many people a difficult and controversial subject, but one that desperately needs to be addressed.
December 4th, 2006 at 4:33 pm
Oops, looks like my internet filter is working a little too well, as both instances of “girls” written by me in the above comment were deleted. Sorry about that.
December 4th, 2006 at 7:53 pm
Thank you for perpetuating the idea in our culture that women are only here to serve and be judged by men. I hope you will have another survey that allows men to ask questions of women. Why do women need to primp and paint and worry only to hope to be chosen by all-powerful men? Men have questions for girls too. Make it equal please.
December 4th, 2006 at 8:16 pm
Jessica: The ideas you say we perpetuate are a fringe minority that is certainly not represented in this survey. Men and women exist to serve God and are judged by Him. This survey has been undertaken at the girls request, and we plan to do many additional discussions which will include men asking women questions. We do this because we believe there is intrinsic value in the discussion, not for the sake of political correctness.
December 4th, 2006 at 8:42 pm
Wow! Wow! Wow! I can’t tell you how excited I am about this! As a young woman working avidly in the modesty movement, I quickly learned that there is nothing so powerful and so moving for us girls seeking true modesty and real beauty, and nothing with such effectiveness at reaching those girls’ hearts who may even not be seeking modesty, as the testimonies and humble, honest pleas of Godly young men. I think sometimes it can take just one Godly man to drive home with sure force the message that scores of girls could have been trying to share with another girl. Sadly, it’s far too rare that young men (or fathers!) do speak up about this topic…but when you do, feminine ears perk up!
I am greatly looking forward to reading this!
Your Sister in Christ,
Claire
P.S. REALLY MARVELOUS AD THERE! The photo is great.
December 5th, 2006 at 1:17 pm
Yeah, what about men’s modesty? What, no speedos allowed?
All kidding aside, great job with another outstanding idea. It’s truly rebelutionary.
In Christ,
Charlie Mulligan
Crossway Community Church, Charlotte NC
December 5th, 2006 at 4:39 pm
This is a truly great way to apply our beliefs to our lives. Many do not know the importance of dress, and this is a great way to help inform.
Maria
December 5th, 2006 at 6:39 pm
If this is “typical american christian”, I say it’s about time! I figure if God considered it worth His time to include a modesty admonishment in his Word, the least we can do is “waste our time” paying attention to it. If we don’t concern ourselves with understanding the holiness that should follow conversion, how can we [i]ever[/i] hope to “make disciples” who will, then by their actions, attract others to the Lord they profess? This is a very worthwhile venture and I applaud the person(s) who had the idea. And I intend to participate in it.
December 5th, 2006 at 7:11 pm
Are you going to post the questions and answers in the modesty survey on this blog so we all can read it? I am sure it will be helpful to me and am looking forward to reading it. Do you have a date when it will be finished by?
December 5th, 2006 at 8:20 pm
This is ridiculous. How you dress is not that big of a deal. And haven’t you noticed that men can take their shirt off and wear nothing but swim trunks yet people freak out if women show even a little bit of skin anywhere. Before anyone says anything, I’m not saying girls should have to wear a shirt or anything I’m pointing out a double standard that already exists. Look, the Victorian era is dead and it’s never coming back…and I say good ridance! Come on, women weren’t liberated to become a slave to the traditions designed to control them. Wearing revealing clothing isn’t wrong, people just interpret it out of proportion or attempt to control people. A lot of that stuff was about culture. They were ridiculously strict on women in that time and place. Come on, you really need a man to tell you things? You’re grown women, make your own decisions. Come to your own conclusions. Don’t you see the problem with allowing men to be involved like this? I’m a guy, and I see a real problem. Seeing all the comments by other guys (besides Danny) proves it. I think this is ridiculous, and while I won’t spam your site, I will at least make these efforts more difficult if I see this kind of survey anywhere offline. Call me what you will, but I am not letting this go. Not without a fight!
Since I had to use my email address, feel free to email you. I probably won’t answer though. And I appologize if I sound rude. I just needed to vent. I was clean about it, as you can see. But isn’t the internet for venting anyway?
December 5th, 2006 at 8:42 pm
This idea is great. ok its not the victorian era but thats not the point the point is what Gods word says. Dressing modestly affects every one around you. when girls wear imodest clothing it cuases guys to look at them young or old[which is sinning even though didnt do anything you thought it]. God bless you
December 5th, 2006 at 9:19 pm
This is a very interesting idea and I eagerly await the completion. As a young lady (even one who does have wonderful men–young and old–in her life to assist in this area) I am curious to see what my brothers say on a topic that so many people have varying views on.
Thank you Brett, Alex and Katrina for taking the time to do this!
December 6th, 2006 at 5:42 am
Like Josh says, this is not the Victorian era. But modesty is still important in our garish, feminist culture. Romans 13:13 says “Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy.”
Anyway, the Victorian era was not thoroughly bad. Women could work, unless they were in an upperclass situation. The propriety of the wife submitting to the husband, and the men doing men’s jobs, were better upheld then. That is not feminine oppression; that’s the way God designed things.
December 6th, 2006 at 8:22 am
I got saved back in 1973 when I was 18.5 years old. Previously, I had purposely dressed to entice males (mini skirts, tight tops, etc.). One of the first things that changed in my life was a desire to dress more modestly. Then I went to New Tribes Bible Institute in the fall of 1974. The Dean of Women put on a fashion show for all us girls to show what was accepted at the school and what wasn’t. What was so cool about it, though, was the “whys” that she shared and how the young men would come and tell her that they had just got saved and were there at bible school and how the young women were stumbling them with their dress. That really impacted me and has stayed with me all my life. Women who say that it does not matter what they wear and that it is the man’s problem are just being very selfish and need to look at their own motives for what they are wearing. I do think that men need to also pay attention to modesty, as well. The scriptures do have standards for male modesty, too, such as not showing the thigh (gotta get rid of those short shorts, too, guys). Do a study and find out. It is there.
One thing I learned over the years, though, is that modesty has the most to do with the countenance and especially the eyes. We are not careful with that in our culture and are offensive all over the world because of the boldness we have in looking into the eyes of the opposite sex. In other cultures, we are considered loose, no matter how modestly we dress. A woman (or man) should avoid looking into the eyes of the opposite sex unless relationship is close. I think a study of Proverbs would show that one of the strange woman’s tools for snagging a young man is the bold look.
Anyway, I think that what you are doing is wonderful! I think it will help to at least raise the standard of modesty among those who profess to be disciples of the Messiah.
Love and shalom,
Serena
December 6th, 2006 at 8:46 am
The fact of not being in the victorian era is, well, not relevant to the idea of modest attire. When a woman shows cleavage, or even wears a top that is too tight, it is distracting. I saw a greeting card once that touched on this…”a woman’s cleavage is like the sun…you know you shouldn’t look, but you can’t ignore it!”
And, the women’s liberation movement was originally for the purpose of gaining equality in society, ie, the workplace, the home, etc. Many have taken that movement too far by saying it gives us permission to dress like we are loose.
December 6th, 2006 at 8:56 am
Is this strictly for 20ish and under? I am interested in learning more and have a young daughter, but my twenties are long gone.
Thank you.
December 6th, 2006 at 10:13 am
Charlie Says: Yeah, what about men’s modesty? What, no speedos allowed?
Ha Ha! rotflol. speedos? gross! they ought to be out lawed!
December 6th, 2006 at 12:11 pm
Stephanie: There is no age limit for involvement in the survey. Feel free to submit your own questions. This also applies to guys answer the questions, we don’t plan on imposing an age limit.
December 6th, 2006 at 12:52 pm
To Headstrong:
Thank you so much for your interest and input to this site. I don’t think (at least I hope) that anyone here will call you anything, and your opinion is just as valid as any others. But where I think you are misguided is in our reasons for encouraging modesty. We are not asking women to wear less revealing clothes to restrict them to outdated traditions but instead to help people of both genders in their walk with God. What we realize is that when a guy is tempted by immodest clothing to lust, he is offending the Almighty God just like any other sin he could commit. The young (and not as young ladies) in this survey are trying to find out what triggers this lust so that they will not present a stumbling block to their brothers in Christ. Traditions are the least thing on our minds- the hypocracy of the Victorian era is no better than the licientiousness of today. Finally, take a look at the clothing of the Victorian period- weren’t corsets meant to create a physically attractive figure for appealing to men? But anyway, thanks for your input. I hope you will consider the purpose of this site. Anything different about us only comes from Jesus’s rebelutionary sacrificial death on the Cross. I pray that you, by God’s grace, will accept the promises He has made to us. “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him” (John 3:17)
God Bless,
Charlie
December 6th, 2006 at 9:00 pm
Maybe I can’t convince any of you, but I think people are making a bigger deal out of this than it really is. Revealing clothing has nothing to do with your relationship with God. Well, maybe not everyone thinks so, but that’s what I think. I can understand that some people take it out of control, but it’s impossible not to find somebody else/another person’s body. Finding somebody attractive and lust two different things, though. Finding somebody attractive is not a sin (it is a natural human thing…hormones and stuff), and the Seven Deadly Sins is really debateable. It does come from Dante’s Inferno, which is fictional. Consider the time and place it was written too.
If the guy is tempted to lust, I would like to say to say that guy is weak, but that doesn’t really seem to nice does it? Well, I’m not always a nice guy. I would like to think I usually am, but…I am pretty hard on other guys sometimes. Actually, a lot of the time.
Anyway, it isn’t the responsibility of the women to avoid men having stumbling blocks. It’s not those women’s problem. Women should not be accountable in any way for a problem men have. I am a guy, in case you forgot. I think if a woman wants to dress in something revealing, I have a responsibility to control myself. It’s easier than you think, although it is impossible not to find them attractive, but that happens no matter what a person wears you know.
If you want to know why I’m here, it’s because I saw the title somewhere on the person who has that “Thoughts of a Woodelf” blog and got curious. As soon as I clicked it…”Oh boy, I’m going to go into rant-mode again.” That happens a lot…I think that name I’m using explains things very well.
December 6th, 2006 at 9:32 pm
I think that this is a wonderful idea! I would like to join the Garage, but I don’t understand quite how. Any insight into this from anyone would be appriciated.
December 6th, 2006 at 9:47 pm
Headstrong: I have to agree with you that attraction and lust are two different things. God created beauty and with it came the feeling of attraction between male and female. However, as with all things God has created satan has found a way to warp and distort true beauty into lust. And as Humans men (and women) are sinful by nature (due to the fall) and so our flesh’s natrual (or really unnatural since we were created with out the tendancy to sin) response to temptation is to sin. While attraction is given to us by God, lust is of the devil and should be treated as such, and since attraction if not carefully monitered and given to God can lead to lust we must be carefull lest we fall into sin. This is a very important topic and should be discussed and addressed as such because it can potentially ruin your life and cause you great regret.
If I think that a girl is attractive there is nothing wrong with that, God created me to appreciate beauty. However if I begin to dwell on that girl’s beauty and how attractive she is then I am commiting a sin, at this point is ceases to be attraction and becomes lust. I have steped out side of God’s plan for beauty and attraction and steped in to the devil’s trap of lust which is a sin. And as James says Chapter 1 verses 14 and 15 “But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. [15]Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.” (NASB) sin ultimatly leads to death.
Remember that as Paul says in his letter to Corinth “No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.” (1 Cor. 10:13 NIV) So don’t be discouraged you are not alone others are being tempted the same way and are able by the grace of God able to overcome it. Jesus also was tempted and conquered, and He has given us the power in His name to do the same. “For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.” (Hebrews 4:15 NIV)
I earnestly hope that what I have written helps explains the difference between attraction and lust. I also hope that everything I have said lines up with the Bible and would appreciate any correction or further explination from someone with more wisdom, (Alex, Brett or anyone else who would like to add something).
Note: I didn’t mean to go on so long and I am not just writing to Headstrong I am writing to myself and to everyone else. I am not trying to pick at you just trying to help.
Your Brother In Christ,
Joshua
December 6th, 2006 at 9:52 pm
Aaron Porter: To join the Garage:
First join TheRebelution Forums (link at top of page). Once you have joined the forum send a private message to David Boskovic (moderator of the Garage) and ask to join the Garage, he will let you in (you might have to wait a little to allow him to recieve your message and let you in). Hope to see you in the forums soon and have a great and blessed day.
Hope This Helps!
Your Brother In Christ,
Joshua
December 6th, 2006 at 9:52 pm
PS: Keep in mind, I’m a guy. This is a reminder in case anyone still thinks I’m a woman.
Abigail: I don’t know what you’ve been taught, but there is no such thing as a “mans’ job”. Not anymore at least. It isn’t how God designed things, it’s about culture. And in the culture of America, women can take any job.
Savannah: You don’t need a guy to assist you in that. It’s not really our business telling you that for one thing. You can come to your own conclusions without us.
Serena: Some women do wear things to purposely attract guys, like in your example with yourself, but not all do. Some wear short shorts and midriff shirts because it allows for more freedom of movement and is more comfortable. And about looking into the eyes, that’s about culture. In many eastern countries, looking into the eyes is considered disrespectful, but in western countries like America not making any eye contact makes people thinking the person is being evasive. In America, we feel being direct and assertive, while many eastern countries don’t. That’s where the confusion is created.
Miranda: You notice I’m a guy saying it’s the guy’s problem. So it isn’t just selfishness of women–It’s also true. Is it hard not to look? Yes. Is it impossible not to look? No way. It’s easy to get curious, but you soon learn not to stare at the sun. You can’t look at the sun for long. If a guy stares at a woman’s chest area, he soon learns that he gets a (well-deserved in my opinion) slap. A quick glance may be unavoidable, but that isn’t a problem. It’s purposely and pervertedly staring, that becomes a problem. Who says it’s “dressing like they’re loose”? Unless, “loose” means unrestricted in this case (which I doubt). I would think it stands to reason that you should get freedom in attire in addition to more equality. I would consider it a sign of increased tolerance.
Gina: Unfortunately, we couldn’t really outlaw them. I don’t really like them, but the only thing I can do is ignore it.
I understand that online, it is hard to detect tone. I’m sorry, if anyone feels I sound rude and nasty in this post. It isn’t my intention. I just really felt like I had to get all that out.
December 6th, 2006 at 10:04 pm
Joshua R: Unfortunately I’m really stubborm. My way of dealing with it is to rush in fist happy and hope for the best. I think it’s worked quite well so far. I can see what you’re saying. It can be hard to be perverted, but I think I’ve succeeded in not getting perverted regardless of how revealing a woman’s clothing is. Do I like how they look? You bet. Am I perverted or anything like that? No way. Well, I’m not perfect of course, but I acknowledge that it’s my fault and just try harder next time.
December 6th, 2006 at 10:12 pm
Headstrong: I forgot to mention, I agree that there should not be a double standard about modesty with one for girls and another for guys. I believe that modesty is for everyone (men and women, young and old) I think that when a guy takes off his shirt it is just as wrong and if a girl takes off hers. I think that everyone should be modest and descreet about what they wear and how they dress lest they cause their brothers or sisters to stumble (”So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. [32]Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— [33]even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.” 1 Cor. 10:31-33 NIV) I believe that we should at all times keep the life and thoughts of our neighbor at heart and love them as ourselves seeking in all things to not cause them to stumble.
I hope and Pray that God will work upon your heart that you might see the light and come to know Him better. I pray that you will be uplifted and encouraged by what I and others have written and that through our writting come to a closer relationship with our Father in Heaven.
I Hope this helps you understand where we are coming from and would recommend that you read James 1, 1 Cor. 10. I also recommend [url=http://www.regenerateourculture.com/magazine/article/148/]”Understanding Modesty”[/url] by Christine Fuller, I would also like recommend [url=http://www.regenerateourculture.com/magazine/article/146/]”And So Be Pure”[/url] by David Ketter
Your Brother In Christ,
Joshua
December 6th, 2006 at 10:42 pm
Headstrong: I understand what you mean by stubborn I am the same way, however I have found that even when I think that it is not a problem it devlops into one given time and fuel (i.e. immodest clothing). I must disagree with you on what you said here “A quick glance may be unavoidable, but that isn’t a problem.” because it is the “quick glances” that give the devil a foot hold and allow him to build his strong hold of lust. This is where many men begin to lose the battle against lust they think that it is unavoidable and not a problem. This is where they are wrong. It is these little things some might call them seeds, that grow into the giant thorn bush that is lust, the Bible says what you sow so also will you reap. If you sow those quick glances then you will reap bigger glances and lust, likewise if you sow discretion and not taking those quick glances but instead give your thoughts and eyes to God then you will reap a harves of joy and purity.
I also have to disagree with what you said about a man’s job “but there is no such thing as a “mans’ job”. Not anymore at least. It isn’t how God designed things, it’s about culture.” to quote Genesis 3:16-17 “To the woman He said, I will greatly multiply your grief and your suffering in pregnancy and the pangs of childbearing; with spasms of distress you will bring forth children. Yet your desire and craving will be for your husband, and he will rule over you. [17]And to Adam He said, Because you have listened and given heed to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it, the ground is under a curse because of you; in sorrow and toil shall you eat [of the fruits] of it all the days of your life.” thus from the very begining God said that the man would till the soil and rule over the woman, and the woman would bear childeren and be submissive to her husband. This is how God designed things, the man is to provide for the family by working the ground and the woman is to tend the house and care for the childeren. It is not a “culture thing” this is a God thing and is about the way he designed man and woman. They each play an important part in the family and neither can fill the others place, a man cannot bear childeren and a woman should not work the ground. It was by disregarding the mandates of God that Adam and Eve fell in to sin and by continuing to do so we also sin. As you said in the culture of America a woman can take any job, however that does not make it right. The ability to do something does not give one the right to do so or make that action righteous.
I would like to ask you a question without offending you. Do you have a viable living breathing relationship with Jesus Christ? If so than I am glad and hope that this discussion will help you grow and mature in that relationship. If not then I hope that you will change that right now, I pray that you would accept Christ into your life and see the light that is Christ. As I said I do not want to offend you i would just like to clarify that point. Because everything that I am saying is pointless if you are not saved because I am coming from a Biblical perspective and my arguments are Biblically based.
As you said it is hard to detect tone, so I would like you to know that I am not trying to bash you but rather show you the light.
Your Brother In Christ,
Joshua
December 7th, 2006 at 4:48 am
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December 7th, 2006 at 4:49 am
I have to jump in and comment to Headstrong from a woman’s point of view. I do not think he realizes - perhaps from not knowing women who are concerned that they be seen for who they are and not what they are built like - that women are not always comfortable trusting their own judgement as to what they look good/appropriate/attractive in! I ask my husband on a daily basis if what I am wearing is any one of a number of things - including too revealing, attractive, too plain, etc.. I dress at least as much to please his tastes and thoughts as I do my own. And lest you think I am some victim of prudish fear and sack-like bag jumpers and dresses let me assure you that I think that if I do not look as well-dressed and personable and attractive as I can while at the same time following a modest standard of dress I am not obeying what God has given me the responsibility to be!
I want to be seen for who I am - not what I look like. I want to be known as me - Margaret - not that great __________ or those _________ __________. As soon as I stop being Margaret and become an object/collection of body parts I can no longer be seen or heard. If asking my husband or other men in this survey helps me to be perceived as myself instead of some body parts I will ask and keep asking and ask some more - because - for me being seen as Margaret is infinitely more important than anything else I do outside of my relationship with God because me is all I have to offer the world and if I dilute the message that God has asked me to bring to the world through my choice of dress and appearance than I have done less than my job as his daughter.
I fear for those girls and young women who are being raised in families that allow access to television and the media where the idealization of “perfect” body parts have become the standard by which they are judged and if they do not have those perfect body parts - the loss of self-esteem that results.
I fear for the society that we are creating in this country - and in the world that says that the value of a human - especially of a woman - is based on a completely unrealistic and false ideal created not by God or even nature - but instead by plastic surgeons and air-brushed models in magazines, movies and television that send the message that unless your individual body parts look freakishly large or small you have no value and no one will love you (as shown by how much stuff they will give you) or choose you to socialize with (which includes their allowing you to go about in their packs to nightclubs and parties and encouraging intoxication from alcohol and drugs).
What have we reduced our daughters and sisters and friends to - that we tell them they are only of value as bodies - not as souls and hearts and minds? What message are we sending our mothers and wives when even in the churches (never mind the world) we see women who are not alowed to age gracefully - to grow a lovely head of white hair or to have bodies that are clearly not 20 years old? Even in the Christian community - we judge women by their appearances and tend to validate the young and pert and discount the women who appear their age and who are more than 20!
Only by creating surveys like this and by encouraging the perception of women as people instead of body parts do women become truly able to be who they are and who they were meant to be - by developing their hearts and minds and souls as well as healthy, modestly attired bodies! Far more able to be a full human being is the person who is not obsessed with their appearance or their body parts or their keeping up with the latest fad in clothes or accessories! Far more likely to be a complete woman - to be a complete and equal person is the woman who is not feeling the pressure of a society to appear as if she were an airbrushed model!
Our society is infinitely more oppressive and confining to women than the worst perceptions of the Victorian era ever thought of being - because we have created standards of dress and appearance in our day that are just about completely unobtainable unless you are incredibly wealthy and have access to plastic surgeons on a constant basis - thus making anyone who attempts to acheive those standards unable to ever succeed. In the Victorian era - the most a woman had to contend was dressing in a fashion that covered the very body parts that we have made the center of our society - therefore allowing her to have a less than perfect body and still be accepted into society!
Forgive the rant! I am feeling this pretty strongly - probably becasue I see so many young women suffering from such a tragic obsession with what they look like instead of who they are and I think this survey will help change the focus! Becoming known for who you are instead of what you are is a goal of great importance and if asking men what keeps them focused on the what so we can avoid it instead of the who so we can embrace those things helps this, then the sooner this survey takes place the better!
Being able to be who I am is the most liberating thing in the world! Being confined to what I look like and having that be the basis by which I am judged and chosen is the most confining and tragic thing in the world because it is impossible for anyone to ever succeed on that basis! Being who I am is what God asks me to be and what He judges me on - not what I look like! Somehow I don’t think that what size I was or whether I had the latest fashion has a whole lot to do with what the basis for His judgement will be!
December 7th, 2006 at 4:58 am
The argument has been made that modesty isn’t that big of a deal. Here is a verse from I Corinthians that gives us biblical principles to apply to modesty. (Although it does not talk directly about modesty, the principles here certainly can, and must, be applied to modesty.)
1 Corinthians 8:12-13
12 Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
In the verses before, Paul is explaining that even though eating food sacrificed to idols isn’t wrong in and of itself, its effect on those around us often makes it sin. So girls, if men didn’t exist there would be no need for a modesty survey. But that is obviously not the case.
Headstrong, first of all I appreciate your willingness to discuss with us. Please know that we don’t claim to know all the answers. We are only sinners saved by the mercy of our holy God and he commands us to live in accordance with his word. Absolute truth, and the answers to every single one of your questions can be found only within scripture. Any arguments we make attempt to (or should) reflect that truth. That being said, let me continue. I think all guys would honestly have to agree that the clothes a girl wears do make a difference in the temptations we face. Granted, it is possible, in fact all too easy, to lust even when a girl is being modest. That DOES NOT, however mean that the girl is free to wear whatever she feels like. And here is where the verses above come into play. Paul says that if eating meat would cause those around him to sin, he will never eat meat again. That is a really strong statement. Paul wasn’t a vegetarian and I think its safe to say he liked eating meat like most of us. But he was willing, in a heartbeat, to give up something that WASN’T EVEN WRONG if it caused others to stumble. If we all thought this way about clothes and modesty, it would be much less of an issue.
Anyway, gotta go. If anyone has anything to add, please do so.
John C
December 7th, 2006 at 5:16 am
As the mom of 5 girls (ages 16 to 5), I am so concerned with the modesty issue. This is a GREAT idea…to have a forum and networking of Believers. Is there anyway to post info on Modest clothing websites? I work for a company called Shade Clothing that sells shirts for women and girls that can be used under other shirts to stay modest.
December 7th, 2006 at 6:26 am
Hey Jen,
Once the survey is completed, the results will be published here on the Rebelution blog as well as in a few other helpful, creative ways!
I checked out ‘Shade Clothing’ and I’d really like to express my heartfelt appreciation on the behalf of many other men for all companies like this. You all are awesome!
David
December 7th, 2006 at 9:48 am
Everyone: I would like to respectfully request that the back-and-forth discussion which has started in this comment section be discontinued. This survey is meant to facilitate a conversation between girls who care about modesty and guys who also care about modesty. As such, the views of non-Christians who have no conviction in this area are not relevant to the survey, and subsequently, this comment section.
Those who do not believe in God and/or the Bible are not expected to agree with those who do. When disagreement arises the issue lies within the heart, and debates over symptoms of belief are largely fruitless. Thank you everyone for understanding.
December 7th, 2006 at 10:04 am
[…] […]
December 7th, 2006 at 10:15 am
Headstrong: Though your title negates this view, I don’t want to disregard the potential paradox that you are sincerely interested in learning more about this topic.
If so I would heartily recommend Wendy Shalit’s book, A Return To Modesty which presents a cogent argument for modesty without bashing you over the head with “thus sayeth the Lord” — an approach you may be more open to.
However, if you ever recognize the wisdom of modesty, consider that the God who commands it may be greater than the world that scorns it.
December 7th, 2006 at 11:13 am
Brett: I appoligize that this discussion left the intended topic, and am willing to discontinue it. Thank you for doing this survey and allowing us (guys and girls) to discuss this topic in the least uncomfortable way possible.
Again I apploigize for not taking into consideration the goals of this survey in my comments.
Your Brother In Christ,
Joshua
December 7th, 2006 at 4:31 pm
I am really excited about this survey on modesty. my dad has never really been apart of my life and I have no brothers, so this will be very helpful to me. What a great topic to discuss!
December 7th, 2006 at 6:05 pm
I’m all for modesty, but I’m not sure about this survey. For one thing, there really are cultural differences in what is/isn’t acceptable. Just ask anyone who has ever lived in both urban and rural areas, or on the West Coast and East Coast where climate differences partially determine how people can acceptably dress. Secondly, the survey still puts too much pressure on women to conform without equal accountability for men. The “veil” graphic is rather disturbing since it seems to be more about hiding and silencing women, rather than freeing us from the bondage of worrying how we look all the time. I’m a Christian and I’m really tired of having to “check with the men first” for these types of things. Women shouldn’t be naive about the messages their clothing might send, but men should also be encouraged to see the person behind the dress. There is nothing wrong with sexual attraction; it’s unavoidable. Attempting to completely shut it off can give people unhealthy obsessions with it and cast really dark shadows in people’s lives. Let’s embrace the sexual beings God has created us to be, but let us also think things through realistically and carefully as we have the feelings we do.
December 7th, 2006 at 10:25 pm
Mary: I appreciate your concern for us, but my concern is for you. I’m going to assume that you are a Christian at a secular university. I assume this because while you say that you’re a Christian your comment is laced with moral/cultural relativism, feminism, and pop psychology. Your professors might accuse us of blindly believing the Bible, but you sound like you could be parroting your professors or reading from a secular textbook.
I would encourage you to recognize that for all their claims of tolerance, the people who are influencing you are trying to convert you to their way of thinking — they want you to believe what they do. You are being asked to reject what the Bible says and convert to what the textbook says. The faculty at your college are evangelists just as much as professors — and from your comment it appears that they have been effective.
December 7th, 2006 at 11:46 pm
Thank you so much for doing this! I am so grateful to have parents who are concerned about this issue and have trained me to pursue modesty. However, there are still plenty of questions that I’ve always wanted to ask my brothers in Christ. Really excited to learn how to serve you guys better in this area!
-Lizzy
December 8th, 2006 at 12:20 am
What a wonderful idea! I have lived my whole life in Hawaii, and as you may imaginge, dress standards are extremely lax here for both guys and girls. (For example, restaurants often put up signs asking patrons to please wear shirts and shoes inside.) Part of this is cultural(my brothers, 11 and 14, run around without shirts on pretty much all the time at home, and the 11-year-old wears surf shorts and a collared surfing-brand shirt to church), but it also can be a destructive influence on people’s minds. Tiny bathing suits and low shorts rule the day out here. Because of this even many Christians I know dress quite immodestly, especially at the beach. This survey and other reminders of modesty can be a great influence on Christians here. I’ll be sure to spread the word about this!
December 8th, 2006 at 6:43 am
This survey is an awesome idea - hope you get alot of responses! You guys are truly an anomily to today’s culture - and that’s a very good thing. Thanks for making a bold statement and teaching christian worldview in everything you do. Many blessings!
December 8th, 2006 at 8:06 am
Joshua R, I have joined the forums, but my name is still in black. I must not fully understand the whole idea of replying…
December 8th, 2006 at 8:12 am
This is great, anything that deals with the issue of modesty, with out going overboard..is.
Thanks so much!!!
December 8th, 2006 at 9:38 am
I know their is a lot of disscussion going on about this ad, but I wanted to ask, Isn’t True Modesty a means of living? Isn’t Modesty An action I Never thought that it was what you wear but how you wear it. Your clothes do not show people who you are, but your actions. Now grant Things that are intentionally worn to atract the opposite sex is wrong, BUT IF YOU ARE WEARING SOMETHING AND ARE MAINTAINING A MODEST ATTITUDE YOU ARE NOT BEING IMODEST. The guys will tell you that women have ALL the power in this matter and it is the womans actions that will tell the man if they are wanting attention. There are certain signs a girl gives out that either attract naturall relationships and there are others that can attract the Wrong relationship I have been learning these signs. Slowly but surely and There is no real manual or one way to do it, IT is INDIVIDUAL.
December 8th, 2006 at 9:51 am
Ok, Going through and reading this blog, I noticed the arguments headstrong is putting forward, I would just like to say that he has a point We as women cannot control a mans lust, It does not matter WHAT YOU WEAR, YOUR ATTITUDE TOWARD A LUSTFUL PERSON DETERMINES YOUR SPIRITUAL STRENGTH THIS IS NOT ABOUT JUDGING OTHERS. THIS IS ABOUT SELF GOVERNMENT, NOTHING YOU DO CAN REGULATE DIRECT OR CONTROL ANYONE ELSE……
December 8th, 2006 at 9:54 am
ONE MORE THING, The girl who commented on climate has a point, WE DO NOT WEAR CLOTHES THAT JESUS WORE, WHY would we wear the same thing someone else is wearing? We do not wear headcoverings BECAUSE WE ARE NOT JEWISH, (no offence meant to Jews, Some of my best friends have been jews) BUT WE AS AMERICAN CHRISTIANS ARE INDIVIDUAL AND ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO DRESS THE SAME IT IS A DECISION OF CONCIENCE EVERY TIME YOU PUT SOMETHING ON.
December 8th, 2006 at 3:03 pm
[…] […]
December 8th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
If only people all were thinkers. Here are some young men who ARE taking an active role in the modesty issue by admitting that they aren’t jaded by all the nakedness in the world, and would like to explain to girls and women and other men that they do still have the ability to blush! (as the scriptures say) And some people say that they’re trying to put all the responsibility on the females? By coming out and saying what bothers them, what turns them on, what they would like to preserve for a loving, commited relationship where they can praise and enjoy the wife of their youth, they are doing a hard thing, and taking the responsibility instead of leaving it up to the women to figure out how a man’s or boy’s eyes and mind work. They are taking responsibility for their actions, by asking for equal responsibility from women and girls - especially here in this Christian forum, those who truly care about their influence for Christ and future understandings of sexual things in their marriage bedrooms too. I commend all the people involved here - male and female. May God bless your endevours, as hard as they may seem.
December 8th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
Aaron Porter: The name being in black or red has nothing to do with being on the Forums, it is red if you put a Website in when you comment and black if you don’t.
What is your Screen Name on the Forums? Mine is JoshuaR send me a Private Message.
Your Brother In Christ,
Joshua
December 8th, 2006 at 9:03 pm
Great idea!!!! Girls I grew up with all guys it does matter what we wear! Thanks guys for helping us be more aware!
December 9th, 2006 at 9:24 am
This is so great! Thanks so much guys.
Is there a place where other peoples questions and answers will be displayed? Or do you need to e-mail your own questions in order to read answers?
December 9th, 2006 at 9:55 am
The questions will be posted on the blog in a month or so. You don’t need to e-mail your own questions to see the results.
December 9th, 2006 at 2:24 pm
Thank you for starting this modesty survey. While there has been some questioning about why such a thing is necessary or even profitable, I think one worthy point is that it is a way for men and women to HONOR each other–for the women to honor the men’s perspectives, and for the men to honor the women by caring enough to answer their concerns. Thank you, Alex, Brett, Katrina, and whoever else is working on this, for promoting honor between Christians!
Also, I think there needs to be care taken in how we SPEAK of certain elements of modesty (tightness, etc.), just as there needs to be care taken in dress itself.
December 9th, 2006 at 8:38 pm
Thank you! It can be hard for me to remember that my clothes aren’t just about me. Most of the time, I think I’m just wearing whatever’s most comfortable and that it’s nobody else’s business. It can’t really be true, though, because if only comfort mattered, we’d all go around in pajamas and fluffy bathrobes, right? (In most seasons…let’s not mention summer.) So I guess we all dress for other people, even if we don’t realize it. Thanks for helping girls make intelligent decisions on what kinds of messages to send out!
December 10th, 2006 at 4:24 am
Wow! This is a great idea! Thank you so much to all of those who are working on this project.
If I were to send a question to Katrina, would answers come back to my e-mail, or would they be poasted on this blog (or somwhere else) ??
December 10th, 2006 at 1:57 pm
I like the fact you have a very attractive make-up wearing woman flirting with the viewer from behind some gauze in the banner ad.
December 10th, 2006 at 6:22 pm
This is really awesome. Some girls aren’t aware what is a stumbling block for guys and this is a great way to spread some light.
December 11th, 2006 at 6:56 am
[…] Posted by teenfg Filed in Uncategorized […]
December 11th, 2006 at 9:34 am
I am looking forward to the final product format of this survey!
Though I’ve been brought up to dress decently and appropriately, in the past few years I’ve been brought to think more deeply on this subject, and I’m eager to hear others’ comments.
By the way, MODESTY has more to do with avoiding extremes (in color & style & etc..) than it does with dressing in a concealing rather than revealing manner. DECENT and APPROPRIATE convey the latter meaning, by dictionary defenition.
I think the best thing to keep in mind concerning this subject is that God gave men and women clothes to Conceal and not Reveal their physical forms(within reason, of course), and that men are to dress in a clearly masculine way and women in a clearly feminine way–especially in this day and age of unisex clothing and lack of distinction between the sexes and ‘acceptable’ homosexuality. As Christians, I believe we should unashamedly declare by our dress and mannerisms(our lives) that we embrace the God-ordained roles for men and women. (”I am a woman! Let me be a Woman!”)
NOTE: I am NOT saying that women cannot wear pants! Rather, we must all keep in mind the biblical principles of attire, and ask God for guidance in this area of our lives.
ABOVE ALL: it’s the heart that counts! “Get right within and you’ll be right without.” C.H.Spurgeon. — Miriam Day
December 11th, 2006 at 12:57 pm
I’m tempted to argue everything at once! But I don’t think that would do any good. I appreciate you guys doing this because I want to dress modestly. I have tried; so I will look forward to guys’ responses. This is an important issue, but it also ties into the chivalry thing. Girls that totally feel ugly, because they are treated so, will start caving into standards that the world sets, and then making their brother’s fall. Girls want to be beautiful, and admired. True beauty isn’t in showing off your body, and that won’t get you respect, just lust. But beauty that is honoring to God and men is the incorruptable beauty of hte heart. Don’t try to find your worth in guys’ attraction to you, but in God’s judgement. Modesty is important. I don’t know if I’m making any sense. But that’s ok. (: I’ll be sure to carefully read and consider the quiz. Loving all males as brothers in Christ is helping them with their problem. Besides, I DON’T know about you girls, but I want to be looked at and appreciated for my mind, and who God made me, not because they are thinking about what’s under the clothing. Thanks again guys! (and Katrina)
December 11th, 2006 at 2:20 pm
ok, so this is ok and all. but really, we need to focus on bringing people to Christ……dressing properly should be (if at all) secondary
December 11th, 2006 at 2:48 pm
Stormy: What quiz were you talking about?? Just curious:)
Anyone with an answer: Seven comments back, I asked a question. I just wanted to make sure that it dosn’t go unoticed. Thanks again!!
December 11th, 2006 at 3:42 pm
L.J: The answers to everyone’s questions are going to be posted on this blog (and probably many more).
December 11th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
For all of you who are thanking Alex, Brett and I, I just wanted to let you know that there are a few other people helping too. There are nine of us in all involved in organizing the survey. David Boskovic is building the page for the actual survey and Sarah Harris is in charge of gathering photos to define the clothing articles. Alex Poythress, Nathan Sleadd, Hannah Farver, and Lindsey Wagstaffe are also helping. So thank them too.
December 11th, 2006 at 4:06 pm
Thanks, David, Sarah, Alex, Nathan, Hannah, and Lindsay!
(And Alex, Brett and Katrina again 
)
December 11th, 2006 at 4:38 pm
WOW…I find this so ironic, that we started the same thing the same month…I am going to email you guys directly, I don’t want you to think I stole your idea at all. I just found out about this survey from Alex taking mine…
Love in Christ,
Candace
December 11th, 2006 at 5:46 pm
Hello! I can’t help but point out that the very fact that there are currently 95 (well-now it’s 96 =]) comments on this survey is a testament in itself to the importance of this issue. I also think all the back and forth about guy modesty standards are kind of amusing. I don’t see what that is all about. I read some comments about how guys shouldn’t take their shirts off. What the heck- girls have a tad bit more to worry about up there than guys do
. As a girl, I cannot wait to see the results of this survey. I go to a public school, and I am very defensive about guys looking at me the wrong way. Even if I wasn’t concerned about making Christian guys stumble (which I am), I think giving guys an oppurtunity to see certain areas is sick. I heard a saying once which I think applies. “If the goods aren’t for sale, don’t display them in the window.” The guys who aren’t worried about lust will not worry about keeping their eyes in good places, and I think giving them something to galk at is downright degrading.
. Ttyl! -Alexandra
I simply can’t resist commenting on the conversation resulting from Headstrong’s comment. It sounded a lot like what would happen if I posted a comment on a pro-choice blog, only much more well-mannered
December 11th, 2006 at 6:19 pm
Thank you so much, Brett and Alex, for doing this survey! I struggle in this area, and
, so I really appreciate this survey!
I don’t have any brothers (just the sweetest sis in the world
Thank you!
Soli Deo Gloria!
December 11th, 2006 at 6:29 pm
L:J: I was ttalking about the quiz that is going to happen, I guess it’s a survery though. i always thought of it as a quiz, though. (:
Katrina: Sorry! Thanks ALL of you.
December 12th, 2006 at 1:24 pm
I know that the word ‘modesty’ means not only one’s dress, but one’s actions and behavior. I have seen girls dressed modestly but conveying an immodest character by flirting with young men. I have no brothers to tell me what actions guys find flirtatious. One young man informed me that teasing is a form of flirting, which confused me. Can teasing be construed as flirting? What about a lot of eye contact, laughing at a guy’s jokes, or sitting down by him? Also, I read in a book that what non-Christian men and Christian men want in a woman is relatively similar. Is this true, or do godly men know to look beyond the often imperfect physical form of a woman to her heart and appreciate her for who she is, regardless of how she looks? Is a gentle and quiet (and modest) spirit as important to Christian men as it is to God?
December 12th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
By the way, I really like the banner add. The pure white gauze seems to simbolize purity.
December 13th, 2006 at 8:21 am
Guys, while you are at it, you should let Wendy Shalit know what you are up to- she is the author of the excellent book “Return to Modesty,” which she wrote when she was a twenty-five year old graduate student. Good work.
December 13th, 2006 at 8:36 am
Laura Beth: I mentioned this earlier in response to a similar comment: It is always our goal to take everything back to Jesus and the Cross. The topic of modesty is not unrelated to Christ, it just falls under the category of discipleship, rather than evangelism. This is why the Apostle Paul addresses it in one of his pastoral epistles — namely, his first letter to Timothy.
MM: We love Wendy Shalit’s book! You may have noticed that I recommend it in an earlier comment (above). Actually, I believe she is aware of the Modesty Survey. The survey made it on Modestly Yours (the ModestyZone.com blog), and she commented twice on the post.
December 13th, 2006 at 1:49 pm
this is a great idea! thanks!
Oh- is there a Christian blog ring that you reccomend I join?
December 13th, 2006 at 6:31 pm
Awesome site, I really think this is an awesome way to discuss modesty, yet not too abraisive. I congradulate and agree with the things said in here. I am going to join and put you guys on my xanga. God bless
December 14th, 2006 at 1:42 pm
Will the answers to my question come to my e-mail or will they be posted somewhere else?
Thanks so much to everyone who is working on this project!! I’m very greatful.:)
December 15th, 2006 at 6:32 am
I hope that this will be a great thing!
December 15th, 2006 at 6:20 pm
Stormy: Dido:D!
December 15th, 2006 at 6:28 pm
Lauren: The answers to all of the questions will be available on TheRebelution.com.
December 15th, 2006 at 7:18 pm
AudreyPage: I know what you mean when you adressed the issue of flirtying.
(”Can teasing be construed as flirting? What about a lot of eye contact, laughing at a guy’s jokes….?”) I would like to know what guys think on this topic too.
I started going to a big youth group this year, and being homeschooled, I have not had a lot of experance around boys my own age. I would really like to know what behavior(not just clothing, though, I think that is very important too) is distracting and may cause my fellow brothers to stumble.
Any guy that would like to share with us on this topic, please feel free to. For I, for one, am almost clueless on this account. Thanks.
In Christ,
~Charlene~
P.S.
To all the people that are working on this servay, I wanted to say thanks. You are truely an answer to my prayers. May God bless you and keep you a Fire for the Word.
December 16th, 2006 at 9:21 am
Man, you guys are rolling in comments over here! I am so impressed by your site, your message, and your efforts to change the world - one teen at a time! This modesty survey is a positive step. I have little kids who are soon to be teens… 9 and 7. My poor son cried one day on the way home from somewhere when he saw a billboard with a sleazy woman (with her chest hanging out of a strapless gown) that was advertizing a strip joint. He said, “Mommy, I know that lady is tacky but I can’t help looking at her.” He was only 7 years old. It is sad that we do this type of thing to our kids. We start them off as infants - fed full of all that lustful advertizing. It is no wonder that there have been over 4,800,000 abortions since the war began in Iraq… or that there are so many teens dropping out of school because they are so preoccupied with sex and drugs. I am hopeful when I see teens like you and your readers swimming AGAINST the tide of evil toward a blessed and Godly life. I pray that each of you succeed with your struggle in this dark culture and that you save others - snatching them from the fire - so that they, too can be filled with Truth and Light.
God bless each of you.
In Christ,
Heather (aka Sprittibee)
December 16th, 2006 at 9:38 am
This sounds like a great idea. I have a question though. Will I be able to read the questions and answers on this site or are they only emailed to those who participated? I just found out about this today, and I saw that I´m one day late to send in some questions. So I was hoping I could read the questions and replies on here because this is a very important topic for me. Anyway, even if I can´t I will be visiting regularly to see if there will be another survey like this one. I am just very sad to be late.
December 16th, 2006 at 9:54 pm
Sara: All of the questions and answers will be available on TheRebelution.com.
December 17th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
Hello everyone—I asked some questions in a previous post, and if there are any of my brothers in Christ who would like to help me out by answering them, I would appreciate that very much. Clothing is definitely an important aspect of modesty, but so are actions, and I don’t want any young men to stumble because of my actions any more than I want them to stumble because of what I wear. Thank you!
December 18th, 2006 at 11:08 am
I think that it is important to be modest because if you are wearing really tight clothes and intense makeup then the people you will be talking to about Jesus are going to be focused on your clothing…not what you are saying. But I don’t think it is necessary to wear jean skirts down to the floor and a hat or whatever…I think that we can wear regualr today’s clothing while still being modest. I’m 15 and I still know that!
December 18th, 2006 at 1:40 pm
“Modesty is not simply “clothing regulations” as Danny put it. ”
No, it’s not. It’s up to the guy, not the girl. A girl can intentionally make herself an item, of course, but whether she wants to be or not, a guy can make it so no matter what she’s wearing. The responsibility is for us not to objectify ourselves or try to attract attention, but past that it’s on the other person.
The practicality of this survey is also questionable. If 75% of guys agree on something, is it “voted out” as immodest? It’s a silly notion- because for another quarter it’s still a problem, and for 3/4’s it’s perfectly fine, modest. Nothing is immodest across the board, it depends on the person. Good luck finding something that meets everyone’s approval. It’s a bad approach to a wrong theory.
December 19th, 2006 at 5:24 pm
Wow, guys, this is a great idea. Thank you so much for hosting this blog! I truly enjoy reading your updates. And although I didn’t submit any questions, I am eager to read the survey. Thanks for doing this! =)
December 20th, 2006 at 12:12 pm
What a great idea!!!!!!!!! My parents and I have been trying our best to be modest all the time. I really love that there are other people who care about these sort of things!
December 21st, 2006 at 9:31 pm
First, yes, I’m a bad poster and haven’t read the entire thread. Chalk it up to sleep-depravation (I am also female. Thought I’d insert that since people have been confused online before).
Second, this has already been done elsewhere. Too bad not as many people saw it. It was cool.
Third- I wonder how many of us are doing this because it’s popular? I know, it isn’t in the mainstream, but there’s Christian popular, too. You can dress in a floor-length, turtleneck caftain and if your heart’s not right, you may as well wear half a bikini.
I’ve been involved in many in-depth discussions over this, and it comes down to attitude and focus. Yes, it’s great to have the input of the opposite sex, but just because so many guys say this or that is a turn on doesn’t mean that you have to stop wearing it. Shoot, some people get all worked up if you lick your lips! There’s a balance between not causing your brother to stumble, and being legalistic (And I’m not even going into the whole “different body types” angle).
Legalism will result in your focus changing from Christ to clothing. Instead of obsessing over attracting guys, you’ll be obsessing over whether you’re doing it unintentionally. We should be obsessing over Christ.
This is what I’ve seen out of a LOT of girls who are big on the modesty scene. They take it too far.
So I encourage all my sisters (and brothers) in Christ to dress “with modesty and propriety”, but also to remember “…do not worry…about your body, what you will wear. Is not…the body more important than clothes?”
“And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
So do not worry…For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.” -Excerpts, Matthew 6:35-34
If you focus on Christ, proper dressing will come easily. Don’t let the Law become your replacement for God. It will never save you.
Again, I encourage modesty, but I encourage focus on Christ most.
…I don’t know if that made sense. Sleep depravation, remember? So please indulge me, and speak slowly and clearly if you wish to address something I said. Thanks.
December 21st, 2006 at 9:34 pm
Okay, so I just re-read what I posted, and I just want to clarify
I DO NOT THINK THIS IS A BAD IDEA.
I just want to make sure that the whole picture is presented here.
That’s all. Thank you muchly!
December 22nd, 2006 at 9:00 am
Explaination of previous post. It was in reference to my first post, which didn’t make it past the mods.
I don’t know why, and that’s okay. It’s happened before. It just said that according to the Bible, we shouldn’t be making our clothing the focus of our life. The law won’t save us. Focus on Christ, and “all these things will be added unto you”. Including wisdom to know how to dress.
This is good, but don’t obsess about it. Okay?
I hope this post is more acceptable to the mods. I truly don’t mean to offend, simply to give a glimpse into the larger picture here, drawing on scriptures and my long experience as a 20-something Christian woman.
Thank you, and God bless!
December 22nd, 2006 at 9:02 am
Oops! It’s still waiting for mods. Sorry. You may still get the chance to read it, folks!
I’ll be quiet now.
December 22nd, 2006 at 3:06 pm
Alexandra Says:
December 11th, 2006 at 5:46 pm
“I read some comments about how guys shouldn’t take their shirts off. What the heck- girls have a tad bit more to worry about up there than guys do.”
True. But it’s also a pitfall for some girls. That’s why the hunky guy in a commercial takes his shirt off, etc. Personally I just think it’s disgusting and inconsiderate. And in many cases, it’s done for the exact same reason as women wearing low-cut tops. To attract attention.
As for the men who say “It’s too hot! I can’t wear it!”
Women are supposedly the weaker vessel, yet we must wear TWO layers on top- even in summer. And *gasp* we survive! And only 70 years ago or so, guys would get arrested for wearing swimsuits without tops to the beach. And there wasn’t any air-conditioning then.
So I don’t want to hear it, guys, unless you want me to start calling you a wimp.
I believe it’s the least you can do in exchange for our helping you avoid temptation from our clothing.
December 23rd, 2006 at 7:28 am
How awesome! I can’t wait till this comes out.
December 23rd, 2006 at 10:21 pm
I didn’t read all that, but I still don’t agree with what I did read. For one thing, it’s still pretty ridiculous that it’s guys answering for girls. Women could just as easily answer for other women.
I really don’t care about that. I still say there is no such thing as a man’s job anymore. Childbirth doesn’t count. Not all women have husbands either.
The idea that it is to attract attention is an inference. That may not be THE reason or the only reason. You don’t need “the wisdom to know how to dress,” Those are two unrelated things. You can’t judge wisdom on how a person dresses.
Margaret: But that doesn’t all of them. Some women are comfortable with how they look.
sprittibee: Uh-uh, don’t you make judgements like that. We aren’t even talking about “strip joints”. That’s not the same thing.
Lys: Not all people do it because it’s popular. Some do, but not all. Some people wear things because it’s more comfortable and allows for more free movement.
I’m telling you, you’re things into that aren’t intended. There is a such thing as being
obsesses with “modesty” and what is “proper”. I’m not really interest in this, I’m just bored and I always want to argue about this type of thing to put counterpoints out there.
December 24th, 2006 at 10:22 am
Headstrong said:
“You don’t need “the wisdom to know how to dress,” Those are two unrelated things. You can’t judge wisdom on how a person dresses.”
That is in NO WAY what I meant! Please don’t think that. I meant that God can and does give us wisdom in any matter that we ask. All we have to do is ask Him to guide our choices in clothing, the same way we ask for guidance in other matters.
You also said:
“Not all people do it because it’s popular. Some do, but not all. Some people wear things because it’s more comfortable and allows for more free movement.”
I KNOW not everyone does it because it’s popular. I was wondering how many do. It’s becoming a trend. When it falls out of favor again, we’ll see who’s truely committed and who’s just following the flow. I hope everyone is really committed to this, but I doubt it.
I hope I’m making sense now. If I’ve confused you, feel free to ask again!
~Lys
December 24th, 2006 at 10:23 am
P.S. I like to argue stuff out, too!
December 25th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
Lys-
).
Just so you know, I didn’t mean to say that guys can feel free to be as loose as they want all the time. They obviously need standards too. I just thought it was funny that some people were getting so uptight about the shirt thing. I think it’s fine if guys take their shirts off as long as whatever is on the bottom is up high enough (and as long as they’re not doing it just to attract attention and show off their ripped abs- that’s just irritating). Also, for those guys who are wondering, no, we girls do NOT like seeing your boxers sticking out. Regardless of how cool you may think it looks, it just grosses me out (and guys, when you wear your pants halfway down your rump, it just makes you look funny ’cause you have to waddle to keep them up
December 25th, 2006 at 8:44 pm
Alexandra- Sadly, 90% of the guys I’ve seen go around shirtless were so obviously parading it for the “benefit” of the girls that it was disgusting.
On other occasions, it’s been obvious that that wasn’t the intent, and in those cases, if I’m not in charge, I usually ignore it.
But I’ve been told by a youth leader (One under which I was a counselor for a trip) that it would be “impossible to enforce” a rule like that. That really steamed me up, because I’ve seen how he keeps the boys in line, and there’s no way he would have trouble enforcing ANYTHING.
And I’ve never heard people say it would be impossible to enforce girls keeping their clothes on…
So I guess that’s why it’s such a sore spot with me. It’s been a big part of a double standard in my life.
And I HATE double standards.
December 26th, 2006 at 5:02 pm
Thanks for your response, Brett (about a month ago… sorry). I appreciate your concern, but, for the record, I am not a student. I graduated from Bible college several years ago and am now a stay-at-home mother and wife.
Anyway, I really do believe there are genuinely cultural and geographical differences in what is considered to be modest. For example, I visited a place in the Caribbean where women were discouraged from wearing shorts of any kind. Few of us in the USA would hold the same standard. Or, take the issue of breastfeeding in public. In many parts of the world, it’s not a big deal. My (Christian) friend from Colombia says that she doesn’t understand why many North Americans don’t like to see women nursing in public places, since this is commonplace where she is from.
I don’t believe it is simply “relativism.” It would be nice if the “rules” about such things were the same everywhere, but they’re not. In this case, two opposing viewpoints about this type of thing don’t necessarily mean one is right and the other is wrong. There are certainly other eternal standards like “Love the Lord your God” and “Love your neighbor” that are non-negotiable. I think we are in danger of becoming like the Pharisees (who were the most “moral” and “religious” people of their society), if we focus too much on an exact dress code. Modesty can turn into legalism and vanity pretty quickly if we make some version of it into our idol.
There also seem to be other aspects of dress that North American Christians should be considering. Is it right for us to have several closets-full of clothes? Should we wear clothing with brand names? Should we wear clothing made in sweatshops? Just some more food for thought…
December 26th, 2006 at 8:02 pm
Mary said:
“I think we are in danger of becoming like the Pharisees (who were the most “moral” and “religious” people of their society), if we focus too much on an exact dress code. Modesty can turn into legalism and vanity pretty quickly if we make some version of it into our idol.”
Exactly what I’m talking about. I came out of a church that became extremely legalistic. I guess that’s why I’m so wary of it.
The question is not “What can I wear?” The question is “Will my wearing this cause a fellow Christian to have sinful thoughts and/or do sinful things?”
It isn’t about the clothes, it’s about putting others before yourself. Being considerate of other Christians.
The issue is SELFLESSNESS.
Can we be selfless enough even to wear something uncomfortable so that other believers will not sin?
There are many times when I just don’t want to! No, you can’t make me!
But that’s selfish, isn’t it?
Was Christ selfish? Are we allowed to be selfish?
Nope. Sorry. We’re supposed to be considerate.
The flip side of this is controling your thoughts. You can’t blame someone else for your thought patterns. But it’s only right to help the poor folks that need it. “Bear each other’s burdens”, remember?
I’ve always been naturally modest, so I’ve only recently had to address the REASONS for modesty. I’m still learning all this, but through my journey into the larger modesty scene I’ve come to understand the truth in both sides of the arguement, and find that in many (though certainly not ALL) issues of this kind, the full truth is found in the middle.
We’ve still got a long way to go before we achieve true Godly modesty.
December 26th, 2006 at 11:34 pm
Ok, I’m curious. I am a seventeen year old christian girl, and I do my best to dress in a way that will not distract my guy friends. There are some things that I consider a no-brainer, like midriff shirts or showing cleavage- I know those things distract guys. But I’ve never been able to get a straight answer on high- cut, spaghetti strap tops or dresses. I personally don’t see anything particularly alluring about my shoulders, but I’m not a guy. Input would be greatly appriciated!
December 27th, 2006 at 6:57 am
It’s not your shoulders. It’s the fact that what should be under the clothing usually isn’t.
When it is, everyone knows it. And frankly, that’s not in good taste. No one wants to see your underwear hanging out.
Does that mean I don’t wear them? No. But I usually wear a T-shirt under it, or a button-front shirt over it. Or I wear them over my leotard at dance class.
So that’s the reason I have for camisole shirts & dresses. I hope it made sense!
December 27th, 2006 at 4:13 pm
This is a great encouragement! I have many freinds who dress immodestly, and its great to know that guys appreciate the way that moddest girls dress.
December 27th, 2006 at 7:39 pm
Lys: Thanks you have answered a lot of questions for me. By the way, I wouldn’t worry about not being understood so much. God will let those understand who need to understand. Just a word of thought.:)
December 28th, 2006 at 9:11 am
I just wanted to thank you for starting a site that helps us (girls) to find out how to aviod distracting guys and please God all at the same time. ~Thanks
December 28th, 2006 at 12:13 pm
I’m really glad you guys are doing this. I think modesty is important(it must be it’s in the Bible) but I can’t help thinking you are making a bit bigger of a deal about it than you really should be. I mean If everyone does it it doesn’t make it right but it sure makes it less of a distraction. When it’s normal to wear clothes like that guys get used to seeing it and suddenly it isn’t a big deal anymore. but thats just my opinion. It will be good for the extremely ignorant girls out there who don’t know any better than to walk around town without a shirt on.(pardon the sarcasm but i do have a point)
December 28th, 2006 at 5:29 pm
K8- I see your point, but let’s think about that a little more-
Yes, everyone eventually adjusts to seeing this or that, if they see it enough times. It’s called desensitization.
Which means you feel less. That it takes a lot more for you to react.
No one says that about violence. “Oh, if they see people getting beaten up enough times, they’ll get used to it and it won’t be such a big deal”.
Just as true, but no one wants to get used to it. In fact, there’s a big movement out there to keep that from happening.
I agree with you about this becoming a bigger deal than may be healthy, but I disagree with your logic.
To follow it to completion, one ends up with men who are desensitized to the female body. (I’ll try to avoid getting too in-depth here. I don’t know what the age range is)
Long story short, there’ll be a lot less wonder and discovery on your wedding night. The more you know before marriage, the less pleasure of discovery you can share with your spouse.
I don’t know about you all, but I’d like to save as much of that knowledge as possible to share with my future husband.
The only problem I see with this exercise is the possibility of fixation on it. Rather than go into that again, anyone who wants to know what I’m talking about can scroll up and read my earlier posts.
P.S. Charlene: Thank you! I’m always happy to know when I’ve helped out. It’s hard to tell online sometimes.
December 30th, 2006 at 10:13 am
I think this is great what you all are doing! There are a lot of christians out there who don’t know about dressing modestly.
Thank you!
December 30th, 2006 at 10:18 am
Hey guys. I can’t wait to read this survey! Thanks for doing this, modesty seems lost in today society and I find it so hard to try and keep myself modest when everyone else is lowering their standards.
December 30th, 2006 at 3:07 pm
Another reply!
I know that all I wish to say has already been said many, many times here, but I just have
to voice it myself: THIS IS A WONDERFUL IDEA!!! I am so looking forward to reading the survey.
December 31st, 2006 at 1:17 am
I just have to say that I think this survey is an awesome idea. I’ll have this site bookmarked.
Modesty is ‘thrown-out-the-window’ way too much these days. I know I’m deffinetly ready to help take a stand.
December 31st, 2006 at 6:13 pm
A couple people commented, I think, that women have a sort of bondage because they worry too much about modesty. For myself- when I don’t feel that I am dressed modestly and attractively I actually am more obsessed with