Feminism And The Modesty Survey
The following (real) comments typify a general objection to The Modesty Survey. This post is primarily intended to address a specific method of voicing concern, not to condemn the voicing of concern. We have and do welcome your feedback.
I’m confused…what girl needs advice from male strangers about how to dress? Is this advice for blind girls? Don’t they have moms or sisters or friends or…someone? Maybe we should concentrate on the real problem: finding homes for these poor blind orphans!I have a secret to tell you: Guys don’t actually like spineless females. You may think that acting subservient will make boys like you, but in the end it won’t. Don’t take the blame for the actions of horny teenage boys.
We are not required to shroud ourselves in drab, baggy clothes to protect the innocent eyes and hearts of our Christian brothers. Women have hips, boobs, legs, shoulders, lips, and skin. God put ‘em there, and apparently he was content with a fig leaf to cover up the “immodest” parts, so I don’t know why today’s boys need so much extra coddling.
Sorry… used to think this site was cool, but now I see what it’s really about.
While we gladly tolerate differing opinions, and even attacks on ourselves, these kinds of comments (e.g. girls who care about modesty are “spineless”) can come across as ridiculing the very girls the authors are apparently concerned for.
The Rebelution operates under the classical view of tolerance, in which you are not required to agree with your opponent’s ideas, but must respect them as people. We hope that everyone will embrace this principle in any future interaction.
In regard to the specific allegation—that The Modesty Survey places blame on women—we’re afraid this is a misinterpretation of our purpose.
From reviewing the results, we can tell you that 99% the guys who have taken the survey fully recognize their own responsibility to control their thoughts and actions. They are not blaming the girls, but they are admitting that some (not all) things can be a problem for them. The survey results are only intended for Christian girls who wish to assist their brothers in that fight.
It is actually slightly amusing that here we have 1,500+ men humbly admitting their weakness and voicing their need for women’s help—and all at the women’s request, we might add—and we’re still accused of being male chauvinists. [Note: For a more thorough explanation regarding how we view men and women, click here.]
Additional Modesty Resources
- The Soul of Modesty: C.J. Mahaney’s heart-focused, grace-filled, gospel-centered audio message on the topic of modesty. Made specially available for free download by Sovereign Grace Ministries.
- The Responsibility of Modesty (Part 1): Excerpted from the not-yet-released survey results, a 20-year-old Christian man shares a powerful summation of men’s responsibility in this area.
- The Responsibility of Modesty (Part 2): Excerpted from the not-yet-released survey results, a 22-year-old Christian man shares an insightful analogy explaining the responsibility of women to protect their brothers in Christ.
- The Purpose of Clothing: John Piper explains both the negative and positive messages God communicated by clothing Adam and Eve after they fell into sin.
January 25th, 2007 at 12:00 am
It seems that many Christian girls take the topic of modesty in the wrong way. It’s easy to think “I’ll look ugly” “It’s completely the guy’s issue” or “If I strive to dress modestly then I’m just acting like the girl-with-no-life that people make conservative girls out to be.” On the contrary, modesty (or failing to dress modestly) is a power that we have that is meant to be saved and which we need to guard our brothers in Christ from. Dressing modestly makes me feel more feminine and confident! Still, it’s hard to remember sometimes, and it’s easy to immediately put up a wall about it.
January 25th, 2007 at 2:32 am
Didn’t Tamar cover her face in the Old Testament in order to resemble a harlot?
Are Burkas and face coverings really UN-Modest? What’s going on anymore?
Our culture is whack.
I suggest singles avoid the Television, any mall, electronics section of stores, or late night hangout scene.
Travel the road less traveled.
and you will find travelers to travel with.
Yeah, you solve a lot of the problem with immodesty and Lust right there.
Thank GOD Iam married and out all the single Christian madness.
I wear my Astros big t shirt and baggy-ish pants or long shorts.
no one notices me….Seriously.
I think Maturity and Walk of life will solve the modesty woe’s
Girls…
Stop the vicious cycle of gilt by association.
Just say no to Unsaved Nasty Dudes.
Sic Christ on their Hiney, and run the other way.
your worse self image problems will be solved.
January 25th, 2007 at 4:26 am
I’ll tell ya what gets me. It is the woman who dresses in emphasize her sexuality and then has the nerve to get upset when men notice it. I’m a girl and am perfectly aware of the fact that certain clothes conjure certain thoughts and reactions. I usually didn’t dress that way unless I wanted that reaction. Just because the stray man I wasn’t aiming my attention toward noticed was no call for me to get upset. I knew the implications of going out in public like that. Which I seldom did, but when I did, I expected comments.
On the flip side, the public is afraid of the attitude that a woman might be sexually assaulted and the notion that she “asked” for it in any way. Men are expected to control themselves. But I do believe if a woman wants to be respected for her mind, that is the part of her she is required to reveal.
January 25th, 2007 at 4:26 am
Christian girls who dress modestly are being considerate of their Christian brothers and are honouring their Lord, by dressing how they believe he would want them to.
However, even if all women dressed modestly the problem of lust would not be dealt with, because we still have our imaginations.
And the world would be a boring place if all women dressed the same way.
Where I live, there are quite a few Exclusive Brethren women. The adult women all dress the same, and the girls all adhere to another dress code.
I would hope that the survey would not be used to produce a bunch of clones.
January 25th, 2007 at 4:33 am
I assure you God was *not* content with fig leaves, this is why He gave coats of skins to wear after banishment in Gen. 3:21.
Yep you have hips, breasts, legs, skin, and lovely hair…and all of it attracts men. So cover it up, for goodness sake!
You keep up the good work rebelution.com. I, being a guy, am very interested to see the results as well. Where I live, it is like I am the only person that has any concern about modesty, especially in the church culture here. I want to see what other men think on this very important issue!
January 25th, 2007 at 4:37 am
Agreed, David! No clones! Do not think for a second that ‘modesty’ = ‘clone’
The church I attend is small in number, but there are many more women then there are men, and they all dress beautifully, uniquely, colorfully, and modestly! It is a great thing to see among women.
January 25th, 2007 at 6:04 am
I agree with David’s comment: “Christian girls who dress modestly are being considerate of their Christian brothers and are honoring their Lord, by dressing how they believe he would want them to.”
That is one of the reasons I’ve been so excited about this survey. I believe dressing modestly is a way Christian girls can serve their brothers. My prayer is that I would be able to encourage my brothers as they grow closer to Christ, not distract them by causing a struggle by the way I dress. And that doesn’t mean we girls have to walk around wearing flour sacks in order to be modest.
What better way to learn about modesty than from our Christian brothers themselves?
January 25th, 2007 at 6:18 am
I understand that the heart behind this survey is to have honest discussion of how modesty plays out in real life, to give guys a chance to help girls see what helps/hinders them, and to promote purity. I appreciate the intentions. However, I can understand the offense and bristling that seems to be coming from some of the ladies. As a woman, reading some of the survey comments caused me to feel demeaned and objectified, even if that was not the intention. The extremely detailed comments about every single body area and every type of clothing etc. made me feel low indeed.
I understand that believers need to address the rampant problem of immodesty in our culture–I want to see Christian women support their brothers with their modest apparrel. But some of the comments are extremely focused and come across in a tone that seems to denigrate women by subjecting personal body areas to open magnification and scrutiny.
If we are all really honest (women and men), we know what is modest and what is not. People will vary due to their own conscience and their heeding of that conscience. There is some “wiggle room” to allow for personal likes and preferences. But when we (women) look in a mirror before we leave, we know if what we are wearing is attractive or intended to seduce. We don’t need men to detail us about how every type of clothing, accessory or movement helps or hinders them. Really, we pretty much know! The women who want to please God will conduct themselves in a godly way; and the ones who want to draw attention to their body, will do so in spite of any comments that a survey shows. It’s a heart issue–believe me, there just aren’t too many clueless women out there who dress like seducers, and yet just “don’t realize” what they are doing to men around them!!
Thanks for your stand in a generation of darkness. Yes, modesty matters, and matters a lot. Even if I don’t agree with your methods, I appreciate your convictions about this topic.
January 25th, 2007 at 6:32 am
This person’s comments were very eye-opening. How mean-spirited and rude. It was certainly not encouraging one another in Godliness.
I think they have missed the point of modesty. Modesty is not for the goal of pleasing MEN, but rather pleasing GOD. Of course, God is perfect and in pleasing Him, we will inevitably help our Christian brothers by guarding their purity and our Christian sisters by encouraging their holy standards. But the intention of our modesty is please Christ and to imitate Him.
Many times God will speak to us through the people that surround us, like our parents, our pastors, our youth leaders, our Godly friends. And those people will exhort us to come up in holiness and purity. But it is the Spirit of God who transforms a heart. A parent was just telling me yesterday that she came home to find her daughter cleaning out the dresser. This parent had talked with the daughter many times about modesty and purchased modest clothes for her, but the daughter consistently found ways to rebel and circumvent these measures. However, as soon as this young girl allowed the work of God to touch her heart and repented of her rebellion, it was a natural thing for her to do this. No one forced it on her. This is what the Holy Spirit does–He encourages holiness! When it is the work of the Holy Spirit, it is not forced. It is a genuine spiritual work.
On that note, I think we ought to allow the Modesty Survey to simply be used as a tool to encourage holiness. It is not Law. It is not the inspired Word of God. But it IS the opinions of many Godly young man (including several that I respect very much), and I, for one, will seriously consider their words.
January 25th, 2007 at 6:44 am
God was not “content with a fig leaf to cover up the ‘immodest’ parts” of the body. Look up the Hebrew word for “garment” used when God gives Adam and Eve “garments of skins” (Genesis 3:21), and you’ll see it comes from a word meaning “to cover,” and is variously translated as “coat, garment, robe.” Rather more than a fig leaf, I would say.
January 25th, 2007 at 6:55 am
In response to the comment “I would hope that the survey would not be used to produce a bunch of clones”:
I do not believe that it is the intention of anyone involved with the modesty survey to imply that girls should all dress in burquas or baggy, unfeminine clothing. I, for one, believe that a girl can dress in modest, God-glorifying way as well as an attractive and even fashionable way! There are several wonderful articles on modesty that stress this point at thekingsdaughtermag.com (search articles by the topic “modesty”)
January 25th, 2007 at 7:21 am
Yes, exactly, Ben.
God was not satisfied with fig leaf aprons {a belt for the waist, girdle}, and, neither were Adam & Eve. They hid themselves because, even with the fig leafs covering their ‘immodest parts’, they still felt naked. (See Genesis 3:7-10,21) And it’s not like there was even anyone else around to see them!
God provided robes for Adam and Eve then, because of sin, and because sin is still very much alive, I believe that need for a covering has not changed for us today. We are each very much responsible for our own selves, but God forbid we should callously say with Cain, “Am I my brother’s keeper?”
January 25th, 2007 at 7:46 am
What a great blog…we just found it today from Girl Talk. We have 3 daughters and one son…4th daughter on the way from China. Modesty is important to us,as parents, and my girls. Our older girls want to glorify God with how they dress…and we know how important it will be for our son,too. Thank you for encouraging it.
I can’t wait to spend more time reading your blog!
Kim
January 25th, 2007 at 8:12 am
According to Psalms what the Lord requires is a borken spirit and a contrite heart. While this survey is well intended I think it may well be just another legalistic issue that takes our eyes off Christ. Too often we as evangelicals look within for means of salvation and purity. We think because we do not lie, steal, cuss, or have dubious dressing habits that we are good. I respectfully dissent from this survey as well intentioned but dangerously near-sighted.
January 25th, 2007 at 8:50 am
Dan: It is always our goal to take everything back to Jesus and the Cross. The topic of modesty is not unrelated to Christ, it just falls under the category of discipleship, rather than evangelism. This is why the Apostle Paul addresses it in one of his pastoral epistles — namely, his first letter to Timothy.
In other words, we should strive to obey God’s laws, not in order to be saved, but because we are saved. It is part of the growing work of sanctification (i.e. growth in holiness) that follows from justification (salvation).
January 25th, 2007 at 9:20 am
Brett: Thank you for such a graceful response to Dan, it really speaks about your heart and the heart of this survey. I would say to Dan: I believe with sinners like us there is always the possibility to become legalistic (or to sin), lets look at our own hearts and how we may overcome that temptation instead of passing judgment to others. Thank you for this survey, I will pray that our teenaged brethren will be always pointed to Christ
January 25th, 2007 at 9:34 am
“I have a secret to tell you: Guys don’t actually like spineless females. You may think that acting subservient will make boys like you, but in the end it won’t. Don’t take the blame for the actions of horny teenage boys. ”
It seems that this young lady is even more “spineless” than we are. Are intent is not to make boys like us. It is more like the opposite. While we do not try to make guys dislike us, we are less “spineless” and selfish as to sacrifice a little for the good of our brothers in Christ. And if in the end the only way not to appear spineless is to dress like a rebel, I say forget it!
January 25th, 2007 at 9:42 am
I find it sad that Christian girls think they have no responcibility to protect us guys. God made us the way we are, attracted to the other sex. And I don’t believe it’s in God’s plan for girl’s to be knowingly putting their Christian brothers into temptation. That’s why I am strongly for girls dressing modestly.
January 25th, 2007 at 9:44 am
Alex and Brett,
Erin here
These flaming comments are sad. But should come as no surprise. Anytime you strive to hold to a higher standard, someone always takes offense.
January 25th, 2007 at 9:45 am
When will the results be ready for viewing?
I will be encouraging all of the young ladies I know from church to visit the poll when it is ready.
January 25th, 2007 at 10:18 am
A lot of people seem to think that guys will take this as an excuse to give girls all the responsibility. Or that girls will take it as the clear-cut law on how to dress.
I don’t think so. This is a statistic–a sampling. Not only that, but a sampling of opinion. It is not an absolute authority, and certainly no excuse for bad behavior. In the end, guys are responsible for how they act. But girls can affect their behavior by encouraging them one way or another. So we’re trying to learn some ways we might be able to encourage them in the right direction. Nothing’s perfect, either; technically, we could also use it to encourage them in the wrong direction.
January 25th, 2007 at 10:44 am
Adam and Eve were naked before the fall, before sin, before lust. After their first sin, they realised they were naked, and tried to cover themselves with leaves, which was not enough for God, and He made new clothes for them from animal skins.
January 25th, 2007 at 11:13 am
I have another kind of controverisal question. Is it OK for a married woman in the prvacy of her own home SOLEY for her husband to dress in say a short skirt and a low-cut top? Is that modest to be “cutesy” for my Husband only?
January 25th, 2007 at 11:18 am
Crystal writes: “I knew the implications of going out in public like that. Which I seldom did, but when I did, I expected comments. On the flip side, the public is afraid of the attitude that a woman might be sexually assaulted and the notion that she “asked” for it in any way. Men are expected to control themselves.”
Crystal, you rightly point out that men are expected to control themselves physically, rather than throw themselves on every woman in low-rise jeans. I’d like to go one step further and suggest that men should be, MUST be, expected to control their mouths, too, by not commenting on the appearence and sexuality of women they consider to be immodestly dressed. No woman should have to expect to hear comments (which are frequently disgusting and insulting) about her body from passersby, any more than a woman should have to expect to be raped because of the way she’s dressed.
Blaming women for comments made by men who lack self-control is no better or more right than blaming women who are sexually assaulted for “provoking” their attacker.
January 25th, 2007 at 11:24 am
Thank you for your good responses to that message. I do feel somewhat injured that I came humbly answering all of these embarrassing questions so that my sisters in Christ may have some ideas of how to help us, and then another woman comes along and denounces the whole idea.
It does make me feel kind of sad that I tick in such a way, but I think I speak for most of the guys who took the survey when I say that we coudn’t care less about controlling the way you dress. We’re doing this in order to serve God together.
Dear sisters, thank you for having enough SPINE and COURAGE to dress differently from what fashion designers expect of you. I’m glad that there are some women out there who have their wits about them.
January 25th, 2007 at 11:24 am
I have a question too. If what a woman is wearing is not bad INDEPENDENT of who might stumble because of it, does it BECOME bad when she is exposed to the general public?
January 25th, 2007 at 11:37 am
AJM: What a husband and wife do at home is between both of them and the Lord. The purpose of this survey is to aid young ladies who want to help their brothers in Christ who are NOT their husbands to keep from sinning.
January 25th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
Uh… has it not occured to anyone that heterosexual women find men attractive? So why is it that men are not required to be more modest? Maybe they should cover their heads so we can’t see their new haircut or wear a veil over a stong manly jaw? Maybe they should wear dark glasses if they have pretty eyes? Bulky sweaters over nice biceps? I mean, they’re just ASKING for it, aren’t they?
In fact, why don’t we all just wear burkas?
Or we could… you know, realize that people are attracted to other people and it’s OK. And while we’re at it, teach men that women are more than objects of desire who have the right to wear whatever they like without threat of assault or rape.
January 25th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
I’m very impressed that you guys would be as firm in your foundation as to post these comments on your blog. I personally do not need this advice because my dad cares very much that his daughters dress modestly. However, there are the fathers who care nothing for the way their daughters dress and the girls who are fatherless. If I were in such a situation I would find this survey invaluble. I believe that a girl can dress modestly and still look attractive. Thanks
January 25th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
This whole fig leaf thing with Adam and Eve- It was completely man’s attempt to cover their nakedness. Obviously it wasn’t enough because then God clothed them with animal skins.
In 1 Timothy 2:9-10, it says,”I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.” I still wear jewelry and I do braid my hair occasionally, but that might not be the point- you gotta be watching your reason for doing it- is it for God or men? Are you looking to please God with your appearance or is it for the attention that guys will give you?
January 25th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Is it done yet?
January 25th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
While the Modesty Survey is really a good idea, I also think that it is important that we don’t keep out focus on modesty all the time. I remember a verse somewhere in the Bible, although I’m not sure where, about just that. Keeping your focus on God instead of what we wear.
It is just important to keep in mind that if you keep your focus on God, the rest of our actions including modesty, will fall into place.
January 25th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
AJM,
Honey, whatever you want to wear for your husband is fine. If he’s allowed to see you naked, he’s allowed to see you in short skirts or lingerie. Remember - having lustful thoughts about your spouse is not a sin!
Kim,
Women find men attractive, true, but finding someone attractive is not the same thing as wanting to have sex with them. Men and women think very differently. Men think about sex (a lot) and are very visually oriented, much more so than women.
That being said - I do think men should keep their shirt on while in the presence of women. That’s something that can definitely inspire lustful thoughts for a woman.
January 25th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
wow…those r quite the comments. as a 16 year-old girl, i think this modesty survey is great. too many girls just dress to impress and don’t care about the guys. it’s our responsibilty to make sure guys don’t stumble over how we are dresses. i’m looking forward to reading the results of this survey.
thank you for whoever’s idea this was. sure was a great idea!
January 25th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
I just found this site and saw the survey. I am 34, single and have changed my dress considerably over the years, but am very curious and excited to see what the guys have to tell us.
The thing that seems nice about the way this survey is being done is that there are several guys responding not just a small group. Just like women–guys have different preferences, struggles and the like.
This survey is like anything else. You can choose to gain from it or completely ignore it because you think it is ridiculous. Be open to what God can show you. Just because a guy might get turned on by slits in a skirt doesn’t mean you to have to stop wearing them. I could be wrong here and GUYS are free to comment on this, but personally I think that the way a woman carries herself as well as her attitude could turn something from gorgeous to slutty or vica versa. I have known guys that had problems with back slits more then front slits. We are all wired differently.
I work in retail so I know that there are incredibly cute and modest clothes out there that you can wear and still be “in style” and cute. I know I like wearing what I want to wear and most of the time “don’t care what anyone else thinks”, but when I purchase my clothes I try keep men in mind. There are guys out there that are going to stare at you no matter what you have on because they are just peverted and really, really struggle with lust issues, but there is no reason that we as Godly women can’t do our part to help them and still be in style doing it.
Thanks. Can’t wait to see the results.
January 25th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
AJM: I agree with the other responders to your question: I don’t see anything wrong at all with certain clothing, or lack thereof, in the context of a marriage. I just recently read a quote by a Puritan, something about they were the first to talk about the positive and goodness of sex, etc. within marriage, they were just against the public displays or whatever. CJ Mahaney has said that all the academic types who talk about the Song of Solomon being simply an analogy and poetry, etc. about the relationship between God and the church - sure, it’s that, but it *is* about two lovers.
Kim: yes, definitely a good point. Lots of the times the “modesty talk” is only directed at women. I was happy to see the “men, do you think you have a responsibility in guarding your own eyes” question, though slightly less happy that it wasn’t in there at the beginning of the survey gathering.
I haven’t ever heard or seen anyone looking at my bulging muscles - oh wait, that’s because there aren’t any on this computer engineer’s arms… I did used to get lots of compliments on my eyes - I never thought about it as a modesty issue, so thank you for bringing that up.
I do think there is something different to drawing attention to ourselves versus just walking down the street. I think that is where the responsibility of the “looker”. Women can’t help but be beautiful as a child of God, but they don’t have to flaunt it with certain styles of clothes, etc. I have a harder time stating the same sort of statement for a man, not due to an intellectual problem with it, I just have a hard time thinking that women find men attractive.
As a guy said at a bachelor party I attended a while ago: “the problem is that the average woman is more attractive than the average man”.
January 25th, 2007 at 3:24 pm
This sort of response happens frequently whenever I mention anything about modesty to my sister. The root of it is selfishness. Pure and simple. Selfish unwillingness to care about other people. My sister always ways “It not my problem” thus showing that she has no concern for others and just wants to do what she feels, which is a wholly unbiblical point of view. We are to take care of our brothers and sisters and do what we can to help them not to stumble.
January 25th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Women tend to forget that we’re fashioned differently than men, and that part of our different design gives us incredible power over men that’s not fair to use against them to lead them to sin. I’m nearly twenty, and I’m just now waking up to the male perspective on this issue, and that perspective emerges from their different design as well. Women, know this now: God created women to be more beautiful than men, and God created men to be devastated by the physical beauty of a woman, and to be as aroused by it as he would be by touching her. I don’t mean to scare some of the younger girls here, but young women need to be aware of this fact. If you are dressing immodestly, you’re arousing men who aren’t your husband. You might even be charming men who aren’t even your age (i.e. the old guy who stares at you at the bus stop, etc.). And you’re causing them to lust. Please, please don’t use your body that way, and take pity on the men around you—this is one area where they are truly very weak.
Also, as a nice bonus for dressing modesty, a recent bit of research done on my college campus by a psych prof interested in the ideas of chivalry has found out that men respect women and treat them better if they dress modestly and carry an air of virtuousness, no matter how attractive she is. Men deep down remember the ideal woman as God created her, and they respond to her when they see her: in fact, they will go out of their way to treat her well and try to impress her. Enjoy being the ideal woman of virtue. Sure as heck beats a rude pickup line in a bar.
January 25th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
AJM well if it’s okay to have sex with your husband then there certainly is nothing wrong with a wife wearing a sting bikini in their own home with nobody else there.
I thought of a verse 2 Timothy 3:16 says “Be an example to others in love, in conduct, in faith, and in purity.” If we are to be an example for people who aren’t Christians then we must dress that part. This is not even starting with the whole protecting our brother’s thing.
Have any of you girls ever gone on a diet? What immediately becomes the most alluring thing to you? Chocolate, cake, pie, whatever basically junk food. It’s the same thing with guys and girls (although I hate to compare a girl to candy lol) if a girl wears an immodest top or skirt or something a guy’s mind is designed to immediately think about sex and sexual thoughts. Because we know that these thoughts are a sin we as their sisters in Christ should be more then happy to dress in a modest way.
Modesty does not mean frumpy, it does not mean hide in your room and never let a guy see you until you have an arranged marriage ;). It does mean that we should take basic measures to not temp our brothers in Christ in this way though. If you look at the Pure Fashion web site (www.purefashion.com) they have some basic guidelines for modesty and you could find a fashion show promoting these values in your area.
God bless,
Elizabeth
January 25th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
Kim: Alex and Brett have discussed the possibility of a “guys’ version” of this survey; so rest assured, we understand both sides.
One thing at a time though. 
Abbabble: Can you give some information on the study you mentioned? That sounds very interesting.
January 25th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
Thank you John. Ryan, and Arielle for your answers. God Bless!
January 25th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
I must say that this discussion here is fascinating, it is great to see both sides of the issues.
I took the survey, and was excited at first, but am now a little wary. This is so opinionated. A “survey” for a reason. Alex and Brett I believe have done a really commendable thing setting up this survey, but we all have to be careful with the “answers.” As guys, we have to be very careful not to judge girls right off by how they look. Even if they are dressing in an immodest way, we must begin by stopping our looking at the outside, and try to look at the heart. It is also the responsibility of us guys to guard ourselves. I am not going around and telling all my friends to look at the modesty survey, and “obey” it. I think that modesty starts in the heart. Both ways. Women with a modest heart will dress according to their conscience, (as should men) and men who want to honor God need to guard their eyes and heart from lust.
Even if some how, this survey impacted every Christian teen in America, or even the whole world, and everyone began to dress as modestly as this survey puts forth, then men will still have battles. I do believe that this survey has great upside, and is a great way for Christian men to say, “girls, we need help, here’s how you can begin to help us as we fight our fight against sin.” This is a great way to do it, but we all need to be careful with the results and our resulting attitudes!
God bless,
Nathan V
January 25th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Alex and Brett, thank you for sharing this “sample” message with us and firmly and graciously addressing the issue. Your courage and dedication are a blessing to me, and this is one damsel who’d be glad to have you rescue her any time she’s in distress. May God continue to bless you. =)
January 25th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
I dress modestly from my perspective. I am very glad to be able to see what the guys perspective is soon!! But, my goodness, I am not spineless. I mean, I wish I was more humble! I have this habit of voicing my opinions in, lets just say, not the most respectful way. God has really been working in me though.
Someone commented up there(sorry that I can’t remember who) that if you start with your relationship with God, get that in order, then the rest will follow(speech, life, love, faith, purity).
+1 Timothy 4:12+
“Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.”
January 25th, 2007 at 6:41 pm
Thanks for the great work on the Modesty Survey! Keep doing 1 Timothy 4:12 every day! God bless you all!
January 25th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
Hey Ya’ll,
Enjoyed all the comment, especially the one that thanked the modest girls for being modest! You have no idea how much that means to us girls; I often feel like I’m fighting a losing battle by being modest. No matter where I go whether it be the store, driving down the highway or even to church, I see other girls (or pictures of them) who don’t seem to care about this issue. I wonder if I’m doing any good, and hearing the guys comment about modesty is a real encouragement!
About a “men’s modesty” survey, I’d like to offer my opinion as a girl who in the past thought it might be neccesary, but now I disagree to an extent. Yes, I have struggled with lust before, but I found that was really a heart issue with me. Once I repented of my sin and gave it to God, then it wasn’t a problem. But guys you can help us guard our hearts! And perhaps you could do a survey like that how you can help in an area where we are really weak. But that’s just my two cents.
January 25th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
“I just have a hard time thinking that women find men attractive.”
Okay, never heard that one before, but I can definitely tell you that men aren’t the only ones that have ever had a lust problem, but there aren’t any surveys about how men should make themselves be more modest.
I do think women should strive to dress modestly at all times but some of the questions on that survey were a little offensive to me, how they fixated in great detail on each part of the body.
January 25th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
With regard to the “real” comment noted in this post, God didn’t think fig leaves were enough. Adam and Eve came up with the fig leaves; God made them cloaks of skin.
January 25th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
Reena: You’re very right. Lust is definitely not just a guy problem, even if it may be a bigger problem for a greater percentage of guys. Actually, as Isaac mentioned above, we’re considering doing a survey on modesty for guys sometime in the future.
Regarding the survey questions, any focus on a particular part of the body in an individual question reflects the question as it was asked by the girl who submitted it. Thanks for bearing with us.
January 25th, 2007 at 7:39 pm
hey guys, just wanted to say that whoever posted the comment in the blog has just as real an opinion as anyone else. there are a million different people in this world, and we all have different views - and i might add that we all have to share the same earth. its hard to know whats right and whats not, and if we expect to be allowed to stand up for what we beilieve, we should give that same right to others. it seems like everybody’s attacking each other, and that’s not cool!
January 25th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
I think if there was a ‘guys survey’ it would be helpful if there were some questions about guys’ *behavior* being arousing to girls. Though that would probably be much more subjective than clothing!
About the questions of the present survey, I did squirm a little at the thought of my brothers having to answer all of them! And sometimes the answers have to be something more like “It depends on ___ as to whether or not that style or item would be a stumbling block.” I guess that’s what the comments section was for. However, I think answers to many of them would be helpful to me. And that is what the intention of the Harris brothers is: to provide suggestions to girls whose hearts are ready to serve their brothers. I know that the answers will be guidelines through which I can still express my own style, not a set of rules. Thank you for your work, Modesty Survey team!
Also thank you to the man who said “thanks” to modest girls. It is a wonderful encouragement.
January 25th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
I believe the primary problem in this is that the world sees the female body as inherently sexual, especially certain parts. Men’s bodies are seen as inherently sexual, but nowhere near the extent of women. However, this attitude has been around long before the trend of women wearing next to nothing. In the “good old days” women’s bodies were inhrently sexual but they had to be ashamed of it. Now women are supposed to embrace it.
21st century ungodly American culture drills into our heads that women’s hips, thighs, and breasts (ESPECIALLY breasts!) are inherently sexual, and the instant a man sees these parts-BAM! instant lust. I can’t buy that instant lust is because men are “visual,” because only certain parts cause it–parts our society deems sexual. Instead of seeing breasts as baby-feeders, legs as parts that enable walking, hips as parts that make childbearing easier, we see them as sexual parts, things that could turn men on. We don’t see arms that way, or feet, or the face… To be sure, our bodies are attractive to men, but not to the point of BAM! instant lust.
I do not believe God really intended men to be that way (instant lust at the sight of female body). I do believe women and men alike would be benefitted more by attacking the world’s idea that women’s bodies are inherently sexual, that women are sex objects. See, the world doesn’t make women out to be sex objects by having them wearing skimpy clothes. The world makes women out to be sex objects because they’re women, and unfortunately, a lot of us Christians buy into that (women and men alike). We stop that way of thinking, we make not lusting much, much easier.
About nudity: When God covered up Adam and Eve with the animal skin, it was symbolic of Christ covering our sins with His blood. It was symbolism; the nudity itself wasn’t bad. Same with OT ceremonial laws (like the one about mildew, not eating pork, etc.). It was to symbolize to the Israelites how bad their sin was, not that mildew or pork was sinful. Under Christ, we don’t need that symbolism. Our sin is covered. So really, we have freedom in Christ to be naked (where it’s legal) if we really wanted to be; not that that is a wise thing to do in this world, but yeah.
Oh, and modesty is good, but I feel it’s more of a be polite kind of thing rather than a help men with lust type thing.
Wow this is a long comment! But I find this topic fascinating.
January 25th, 2007 at 8:04 pm
I heartily agree with everything that Daniel (below) said. God wasn’t satisfied with man’s attempt to cover his nakedness, and had to provide a sufficient means to cover it.
Thanks, Rebelution, for putting up this survey. I’m glad that there were some girls out there who really were concerned about their appearance’s effect on guys and wanted to get our opinion.
January 25th, 2007 at 9:20 pm
… the charity and courtesy that you guys display is really so encouraging. - way to go, and thank you
I am looking forward to the results that you two have collected with so much hard effort.
January 25th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
Although I think of myself as a Christian myself, I am rather concerned about the direction and implications of this survery. Despite your statements to the contrary, the words you use to describe attraction, such as “stumbling block” depict physical attraction as a bad thing. Something to be feared and avoided. Physical attraction is a part of human nature and it is and will be present every day of your teenage and adult life. It should be accepted as such.
So you think someone is attractive,.. so what ? Why is that something to be feared and termed as a ’stumbling block’? It’s a part of life. People are attracted to other people. People are also reasoning beings. We are responsible for our own actions. We were given both emotion and reason. Some animals are only physically attracted , ‘in heat’ at certain times of the year, but God saw fit to make human beings physcial attracted to each other year round.
The implication that men need to be ’saved’ from being attracted to women, shortchanges the ability of men to be gentleman and turns women into genderless beings.
I started to take the survey but found it disturbing that the phrase “I find this attractive” is converted to “a stumbling block”. I don’t necessary find an attractive women a stumbling block of any type.
Physical attraction is not something that must be ignored at all costs until the night after your marriage. And if you do so, you are likely to find it difficult to comfortably express/act on those feelings that you have rejected for the last x years, which could put strain on your marriage. And if you feel that once married, you will magically never be attracted to another person while married, I’m afraid you’ll be in for a shock.
I think the concern about physical attraction itself is missing the mark. There will always be physcial attraction, it is a natural and good thing.
The concern should be with how it affects your life and how you choose to express it.
There are some business and professional situations where one is expected to dress a certain way (doctors, lawyers when at work for example).
if you feel that the ONLY way you can gain attention or feel loved is through very attractive clothing or provocative behavior or on the flip side, you find yourself so taken up with sexual thoughts, that your school work or other parts of your life suffer, then you will want to take a look at your behavior, but to term a sort of clothing as bad is going too far the other way and denying as aspect of yourself that God has given you.
January 25th, 2007 at 10:15 pm
I haven’t read the entire 52 comments, nor do I have time to, sorry folks don’t take it personal. I just wanted to comment that Modesty is something that is sadly misunderstood.
Hate to break it to you, but if you really care about your Christian brothers then YES you do have a responsibility to guard his eyes; however, that does NOT invalidate their responsibility to guard their own eyes. Think about it, really, think about it. Girls claim all the time that guys are not doing the right thing concerning the hearts and emotions of other girls, if a guy has a responsibility to be concerned about the emotional wellbeing of the girls he interacts with, then the responsibility to guard the wellbeing of the guys mind (through his eyes) is not an irrational burden.
Also, fyi, God didn’t cover Eve with fig leaves, Adam and Eve did, God is the one who said it wasn’t enough and covered them with the skin of an animal. Apparently (sp) the leaves weren’t enough for God.
On a slightly deeper issue here isn’t the ‘letter of the law’ that leads to legalism, but the heart of it. Far too often we seek to get as close to “violation” without crossing it as we can with total disregard to the Heart of God on the matter. If you look in Scipture, truly seeking to understand the heart of God concerning modesty then it is quite appearent that God isn’t pleased when we do not take precautions against leading people into sin, and quite frankly, immodest dress is designed to do just that. When we are more concerned with pleasing God than having our way, or the attention of other people then we can see clearly what we should do, until then no argument will appease our desire to please ourselves, and we will not be able to please God.
Hebrews 11: 5 “By Faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death, and he was not found, for God had translated him. For before his translation he had this testemony THAT HE PLEASED GOD.”
Amen, so let it be said of me too.
thanks for thinking about it and God bless guys!!
http://www.godzscout.net
January 25th, 2007 at 10:29 pm
Chrisfs: I’m afraid you’re misinterpreting the phrase “stumbling block.” It does not mean “attractive,” rather it carries the connotation that certains behaviors or styles of clothing tempt/encourage men to think lustful thoughts (with a major emphasis on “tempt/encourage,” since no style of clothing can eliminate the possibility of men lusting).
Actually, the survey includes a statement which says, “A guy can consider a girl attractive without thinking about her in an impure way.” The overwhelming majority of guys agree or strongly agree. Hope that clears things up for you! God bless!
January 26th, 2007 at 1:30 am
Hi. I stumbled upon this modesty survey by accident while searching around for articles for youth. Modesty is truly an issue that has not been discussed in details for Christian girls today. I’ve read through the questions and I think it would be really interesting to see the results even if anybody disagrees with it. It really doesn’t matter if anybody disagrees with this survey. I believe this should be taken only as a guide and that it would help girls to understand what our dressing means to guys. After all, we girls are the ones who came up with the questions. There’s no need for us to bristle at the statements in the survey if we understand the intentions of theRebelution.com and Puritygirls.com. I am sure they had good intentions and that they believed that they are doing this to inform girls on how our dressing has an impact on guys. If clarifications need to be done on certain statements, lets do it in a friendly manner instead of lashing out at one another. Lashing out before clarification can only hurt. It was fun reading the survey and I sure hope the results would be out soon. It sounds interesting.:)
January 26th, 2007 at 2:51 am
It’s sad how so many girls don’t see the importance of dressing up with modesty. I’ve told several girls about the Modesty Survey (as well as guys) and they were rather ’surprised’ and didn’t seem to take it as something they would like to be part of. Still, I think this survey is great, and I thank the Harris twins for putting it up. Before I found the Rebelution, I used to give no thought to my appearance. And now, with this Modesty Survey up, I’m learning to choose my clothes and guard my actions even more carefully than before.
I also think it is important to ask the opinions of our Brothers (in Christ). I appreciate it when a guy tells me if he thinks there’s something improper about my clothes or my attitude. It shows that his heart is in the right place, and that he is concerned about his Sisters in the Lord.
God bless!
January 26th, 2007 at 7:04 am
In response to Anonymous about 10 comments up, yes, of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But I don’t agree that it’s hard to determine right from wrong. Aside from the fact that God clearly outlines what is wrong and what is right in the Bible, everyone has a conscience, and that which uses the body in a way God did not intend, or hurts another person is obviously not right.
And I don’t see any attacking except for the several people who have opposed this survey! The majority here are standing up for what they believe, defending this survey and the belief that we girls and women should guard our brothers’ eyes, in turn helping them guard their own minds and hearts, by being modest.
January 26th, 2007 at 7:52 am
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. (Gen 3:21)
The word “coats” being:
kethôneth kûttôneth
keth-o’-neth, koot-to’-neth
From an unused root meaning to cover (compare H3802); a shirt: - coat, garment, robe.
How is this “God was content with fig leaves”? He wasn’t! He killed animals to make covering garments for them when he banished them from the garden — Adam and Eve were content with fig leaf clothing. This wasn’t symbolic, it was a change brought about by the entry of sin into the world — God’s perfect creation being marred by mankind. What formerly was innocent and allowable, nudity without being aware of it, had become tainted by that one little bite of fruit. We are to give no appearance of sin whatsoever, and the most frequently mentioned sin(s) in the Bible are of a sexual nature — maybe it is a hint? You know, just _maybe_?
See, most feminist girls do not want to acknowledge that their actions and dress may well be outright provocative. Men are visually stimulated and we have no control over that; it is “hardwired” into our minds, and it is part of what we are as a man. We exert control by forcing ourselves to think pure thoughts, to look away, and sometimes that is not enough. We cannot turn that response off at will, as much as some women would like to have you believe.
We, as men, and those who made this survey aren’t attacking. We are presenting our opinions and feelings on this matter in a way that it is freely viewable by you, regardless of gender, race, age, or even religion. How is presenting an opinion upon a matter “attacking”? Try defining that with a dictionary. We feel bombarded by the immorality and immodesty around us and are finally standing up and presenting our opinions. The only attacking going on is by feminists and those who do not want to give up their sexy clothing; you have no obligation to change your opinions, though I certainly hope the results from 1,500 guys asking you politely to “please dress more modestly” would influence you.
Chauvinism is defined as such:
1. zealous and aggressive patriotism or blind enthusiasm for military glory.
2. biased devotion to any group, attitude, or cause.
“chauvinist.” Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Random House, Inc. 26 Jan. 2007.
We men who are presenting our opinions and experience, and hoping, praying, that you will change out of the goodness of _your_ hearts aren’t the Chauvinists here … it is the feminists and those who feel threatened by morality.
By all means you are entitled to your opinion! But do not attempt to take potshots at mine and then say that _I_ am doing the attacking. That is an outright lie! Check yourself, sister (the original commenter), and see where you stand for it is on a sandy peak in the midst of a flood.
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an _abomination_ unto him: A proud look, _a lying tongue_, and hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, _A false witness that speaketh lies_, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
(Pro 6:16-19 Emphasis mine)
(I wasn’t sure if HTML markup is allowed, so the underscores are “underlines” if you weren’t aware. It’s a common way to emphasize, such as _underscores_, stars for *bold*, and so on.)
January 26th, 2007 at 9:21 am
I think that often we as ladies can get our purpose for modesty way out of wack…I know because I’ve definitely been there. I’ve often felt frustrated because it feels like we’re being punished for the way men think. That was until God helped me get the modesty issue into a better light by a wonderful book “What In The World Should I Wear?” by Cathy Corle. Through Cathy’s book I was able to see the reason I should dress modestly… to honor Chirst. I don’t dress modestly to serve my fellow brother’s in Christ even though that is a wonderful result. I dress modestly because God has shown me in his word that this a way I can glorify him. Even though often it’s not easy God always helps me and constantly reminds how much he’s done for me so that dressing in a way that honors him is the least I can do. I think it’s great that you’re having this survey because we as women don’t think like men and maybe something that we think is innocent to wear could be very immodest.
January 26th, 2007 at 9:33 am
I think men should have a survey like this, too. The clothing of today is equally immodest for males as it is for females–even jeans and t-shirts are designed to showcase the male body. You have chests, hair, facial hair (or stubble), shoulders and butts, and so many wear provocative scents, even in deodorant–and it all attracts women. So please, cover it up, modestly, loosely! I’m also surprised at Alex and Brett for having such provocative pictures of themselves on the site (see above). The Christian sisters need help, as well! Please, please make a survey like this for the brothers!
January 26th, 2007 at 9:37 am
I’m sorry for the double post, but this comment is exactly why I feel we need to bring this issue to the eyes of our brothers (except with the brothers/sisters reversed):
The majority here are standing up for what they believe, defending this survey and the belief that we girls and women should guard our brothers’ eyes, in turn helping them guard their own minds and hearts, by being modest.
January 26th, 2007 at 9:40 am
Mel: Yes we have freedom in Christ. *However,* to quote Paul:
“All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.” -1Corinthians 10:23
Dressing immodestly does not edify fellow believers. Yes, it is true that different social groups have different standards - but that does not absolve our duty to adhere to the standards in the social group of which we find ourselves a part. As Jesus and Paul both alluded to, we must be careful to not put a stumbling block in front of our fellow believers that causes them to sin (whether we think they’re right or not) .
You mentioned Adam and Eve; it should be noted that they were *married.* In marriage, certain things are permissible that are not permissible outside of marriage. (Hebrews 13 warns against uncovering the marriage bed.)
Also, it is wise to heed the admonitions of Scripture on this topic: As mentioned before 1 Timothy 2:9 commands modesty, and various old testament references speak of immodesty as being shameful.
Since we live in a fallen world, and because of the commands of Scripture, we can conclude that modesty (in dress and action, for both men and women), is important.
I hope that makes sense!
January 26th, 2007 at 10:05 am
I agree alot with what mel says about modesty. it’s very relative. in the japanese culture, the underside of the forearms was considered to be one of the most alluring “sexy” parts of the body. in papua new guinea, women did not wear anything above the waist, and that was absolutely no biggie.
I think alot how men react to womens bodies has to do with exposure and attitude towards that. if we blow this whole thing up to be some major issue, of course a guy will look at a girl and go OMG OMG OMG FEMALE BODY can’t deal with this! i think it’s a simple matter of the guy, individually, dealing with this and putting it out of his mind, or “bouncing his eyes”. not freak out, and just look away. think about something else.
I think that a girl should dress in whatever makes her feel most comfortable, most herself, most poised. i know that sounds like the most selfish statement in the world, so let me explain. when does a girl feel most comfortable, secure, etc. most of the time it’s at home, with family (whether family is blood relation or friends that just are family). will a girl dress sexily to spend a day indoor with her little brother? with her older brother playing video games? with her sister helping with homework? uh nope not really. so why should our attire change just because we go outdoors. because we have this false notion that we have to get people to like us from our body (thank you american culture). well. we don’t!!! if people don’t like you the way you are at home, good! now you know. but if they accept you the way you really are, then that actually means something. i don’t think girls have an inherent urge to look sexy show off their bodies, etc. they only do that under pressure. i think the key is getting to the point where we can go “screw you” to girls who look at us like omg that is so unfashionable. we are obviously more secure with who we are than they are.
now, that being said, i don’t think most girls will go “oh i don’t have to dress sexy i’ll just dress like my uncle bob the bum.” most of us have enough ingrained vanity and care enough about our appearance to look GREAT without pushing ourselves into other peoples face/eyes/mind.
one of the ways of doing this having a clean fresh bright appearance. you guys are gonna hate me for this, but have a straight, honest posture also does wonders for your self confidence and appearance. also, looking good has nothing to do with clothes. the better you feel inside, the better you look outside. really.
so. i challenge you. wake up one morning, dress as if youre expecting to stay home all day, then go to the mall and shock the world! rebel, please!
January 26th, 2007 at 10:43 am
I, like some other girls, was saddened by some comments by girls who don’t care about dressing modestly.
As women who have been saved by the grace of God and placed into his family, “let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works” (Hebrews 10:24). Dressing immodestly does not consider our brothers and how we can stir them up to love and good works; in fact, this distracts and discourages this kind of fellowship!
Sisters, we are not free to clothe ourselves in any way we want to. Every area of our lives must be under the authority of Christ, including how we choose to cover our bodies. “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.” (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) And then, “I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.” (Romans 12:1) We are called to present our bodies as a living sacrifice. Yes, it can be a sacrifice to dress modestly, but that is what we are called to.
So let’s encourage our brothers to love and good deeds, and make sacrifices for them for the glory of God. This is not all about us and how we want to dress, but about how we can honor God and others before ourselves.
January 26th, 2007 at 10:51 am
As a women, I feel it is my duty to be modest with what I wear and I also feel that it is a guys duty to guard his eyes. I think that God ask both men and women to share the responsibility in this matter and not just one or the other. I am so glad that there are guys out there who are willing to be honest with their Christian sisters and let us know what we can do to help. I find myself making sure everything I wear is modest and to be honest with you guys, it is really hard for Christian women to find clothing that is modest. I think sometimes guys don’t realize how hard it is for us to find clothing that is modest but never the less it is partly our responsibility too. I hope that more women can come to realize the power our choice in clothing can have and choose to help our Christian brothers not to sin. Thank you to those Christian men who have taken the time to fill out the survey so, we, as your Christian sisters, can help you out. Thank you to those who have made this survey available.
January 26th, 2007 at 10:58 am
Alex Jordan Harris:
You say “It (stumbling block) does not mean “attractive,” rather it carries the connotation that certains behaviors or styles of clothing tempt/encourage men to think lustful thoughts”
and later you say “A guy can consider a girl attractive without thinking about her in an impure way.” The overwhelming majority of guys agree or strongly agree.”
So what is the difference between finding someone attractive(which is presumably ok) and thinking lustful thoughts(which is presumably not, as it seems to be something that men must be protected from ?)
January 26th, 2007 at 11:09 am
Hannah: dido! Modesty isn’t asking us to be unattractive. It’s asking us to be attractive in the Lord, and not show our bodies as if they were for sale.
Chrisfs: I am no guy! But the difference between attraction and lust to me is like this:
Lust is purely physical, and has nothing whatsoever to do with anything besides lust. In Proverbs Solomen continually talk about how “the way of the immoral woman leads to death.”
But good attraction is much more than physical. It’s a girl’s personality, mind, commitment to the Lord…these things shine through her countenance and make her simply beautiful and attractive. You’re attracted to God in her.
But being a girl I guess I wouldn’t know exactly. What do you guys think?
Once again thanks to all guys willing to participate in and share your weaknesses. It is so helpful.
-Claire
January 26th, 2007 at 11:25 am
Eleonore: I hope they do create a modesty survey for men, because I would like to be aware of the things women view as immodest. Although I confess that I almost always wear pants and a tee-shirt at the very least, since I am embarrassed wearing any less. Usually I wear corduroy pants with a belt, and either a turtle-neck shirt or a flannel shirt (sometimes a corduroy shirt). Would you consider that modest?
Claire: God created woman as a help-mate for man. This doesn’t mean she is a slave like feminists try to claim, but that she is complimentary to man, just as man is complementary to woman. I personally seek the woman who will make my life whole; whether she is pretty or homely I cannot say, for it is God alone who knows whom I will marry. I am looking for someone intelligent, godly, and kind … who is willing not to be my slave, but my teammate. In my opinion, that is exactly what marriage is for: to enable both to better face the world together.
That is why I am very disinterested, even repulsed, by immodest girls. If a girl is immodest, what does she leave to a man’s imagination? Very little. So if I have seen most all of her at a glance like so many others, there is nothing special about her. The physical attraction may be there but I highly doubt there is anything else beyond that. A godly woman is quickly evident by her dress and example, just like the common slut.
I know what I consider as the differentiation between lust and attraction, but I find it hard to articulate. And I have thought about these things a lot lately, not just because of this survey.
January 26th, 2007 at 11:26 am
Chrisfs,
The diffrence between a man thinking of a woman in a lustful way and as just saying she is attractive is that one is a sin and the other is not. God has desighned a woman’s body to be beautiful and highly attractive. Therefore it is perfectly natrual for a man to think of a woman as attracive. However, when a man lusts after a women and starts thinking sexual thoughts about her that is a sin unless that woman is his wife(Proverbs 5:18). Hebrews 13:4 says ” 4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.”. Does that answer your question?
January 26th, 2007 at 11:30 am
Addressing Chrisfs’s question
“So what is the difference between finding someone attractive(which is presumably ok) and thinking lustful thoughts(which is presumably not, as it seems to be something that men must be protected from ?)”
My humble opinion:
Haven’t you ever just looked at something and thought it was beautiful? Like nature, or a work of art? It was attractive, pleasing to behold. I would think that a girl could be pleasing to the eyes in the same way that a pretty picture could, without stirring up lust.
Observing that something is lovely, and thinking lustful thoughts about someone are totally different things.
January 26th, 2007 at 11:34 am
Chrisfs (and anybody else who reads this!):
I think I understand where you’re coming from. The words “attractive” and “modest” and even “stumbling block” are thrown around so much that they’ve taken on a variety of different meanings to different people.
Attractive, by Webster’s definion, means: “alluring, inviting, engaging”, and those things don’t seem to go very well with modesty, which is, in one facet of the defition: “that lowly temper which accompanies a moderate estimate of one’s own worth and importance… and is manifested by retiring, unobtrusive manners, assuming less to itself that others are willing to yield”.
My dad doesn’t like for me to attempt to be “attractive” in the way I dress, because to him attractive connotates drawing attention to oneself, while modesty connotates drawing attention away from oneself.
I think what the guys in the survey meant by “attractive” is what most girls concerned with modesty mean when they say it…basically, pretty, and not frumpy or dowdy. There is a difference between looking at a girl and thinking she is pretty and looking at her in a lustful way. One is perfectly fine, and the other is sin. I don’t want to go into it here, but conscience helps discern the difference.
As a girl, I like to be thought of as pretty, but I do my dead-level best before God to dress and act modestly so that guys aren’t tempted to lust because of me. That’s what this modesty survey is all about—helping us girls to know what things are pretty (we don’t have to dress in Burkas), and what things are, as Alex said, a “stumbling block”. Usually those things are something that draws attention to parts of a girl’s body that a guy has no business thinking about or seeing.
I am so blessed that so many Christian girls voluntarily took the time to ask these questions and that so many Christian guys are voluntarily taking the time to answer them, all for the sake of purity. May God be glorified through it all!
Hope something here was helpful.
Your sis in Christ,
Abbi =)
January 26th, 2007 at 11:38 am
Eleonore,
I agree that the guys should have their own survey. There’s been some mention of that possibility, actually.
I’m sorry, but I only see one picture above of Alex and Brett (at least I assume it’s them), and I don’t understand how it’s provocative. Could you possibly clear that up for me?
January 26th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
I admire the motives behind the modesty survey, and I agree that modesty should be a major concern for every girl (and guy).
Having said that… I wouldn’t want my own brother taking the survey, as I do not want him exposed to the well meaning but embarrassing questions in the survey.
Modesty is so important, and I believe that there should be a healthy discussion of the subject between mothers and daughters, fathers and daughters, sisters, and even close friends.
I don’t want to judge: the motives behind the survey are admirable. It is my opinion, however, that there is entirely too much talk about modesty, clothing, and lust on the web. We should be uplifting and encouraging each other up, but is spending so much of our time and energies on the nitty-gritty of this intimate subject healthy?
I would even ask: could it be immodest to discuss modesty to such an extent?
Prayer and common sense are the most important elements to godly modesty. I don’t want to tempt my Christian brothers, but I don’t think a survey is the best way to decide what is appropriate.
I know that I am voicing the unpopular opinion here, so thanks for listening.
January 26th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
Eleonore-
I dont agree with you about Alex and Bretts picture being provocative. What do you think provocative means? Not every girl will think that either. You can control your mind, if you find yourself thinking ungodly thoughts you can push them out of your mind with God’s help. Are you saying that they shouldnt have pictures of themselves up on the site at all? I like the fact that I can see who these guys are and thank God that they created this site. Even with other sites I like to see what the person looks like who posts on it or whatever (even though the outward appearance doesnt matter). How are there pictures provocative?
January 26th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
Elizabeth: I would like to address some of the objections that you have.
_Having said that… I wouldn’t want my own brother taking the survey, as I do not want him exposed to the well meaning but embarrassing questions in the survey._
This is why the survey is anonymous. The idea is that it won’t be embarrassing if no one knows what they answer.
_Modesty is so important, and I believe that there should be a healthy discussion of the subject between mothers and daughters, fathers and daughters, sisters, and even close friends._
_I don’t want to judge: the motives behind the survey are admirable. It is my opinion, however, that there is entirely too much talk about modesty, clothing, and lust on the web. We should be uplifting and encouraging each other up, but is spending so much of our time and energies on the nitty-gritty of this intimate subject healthy?_
_I would even ask: could it be immodest to discuss modesty to such an extent?_
_Prayer and common sense are the most important elements to godly modesty. I don’t want to tempt my Christian brothers, but I don’t think a survey is the best way to decide what is appropriate._
The reason why I originally wanted to do this survey is because I had no one to ask about modesty. My dad doesn’t have a very strong view on modesty and my brother is only 2. Our church and youthgroup do not value or discuss modesty, so I couldn’t ask anyone in our church. This was the only way I could think of to find out what most guys, specifically teen guys, find modest, and I’m very glad that we had so many guys share their honest opinions. I really don’t think the discussion of modesty is unhealthy. I think that it’s unhealthy for guys to always be seeing immodest girls and not be able to tell any of them to stop it. If you really have any more objections, please elaborate further.
January 26th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
I’m not sure what this has to do with feminism. Perhaps you meant femininity?
But that’s beside the point. I think dressing modestly to avoid causing others to lust completely misses the point of biblical modesty. In Paul’s letters, he tells women to dress modestly, “not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments”. Not really the sort of things to induce lust (at least not in anyone I know).
In other contexts modest means something that is not excessive or showy. A modest person is someone who is humble. A modest home is small and not excessive. I’ve never heard it used with such sexual (or anti-sexual) implications outside the context of Christian culture.
It is possible a certain piece of clothing would not qualify under either definition of modest. There are clothes one might wear to show off her body. It is a mistake, however, to extend that to mean anything that might cause someone to lust.
Thus, I do not think a girl could be said to be dressing immodestly merely because she wears a shirt which is a bit too tight (by whatever standard). Immodesty enters when she wears a shirt to show off or draw attention to herself.
I’ve just realised that there are seventy posts above this, so it’s unlikely many people will read this before it fades quickly into obscurity. I’ve already typed it out, so I’ll post it anyway. Maybe I’ll repost it in the forums later.
January 26th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
“Prayer and common sense are the most important elements to godly modesty. I don’t want to tempt my Christian brothers, but I don’t think a survey is the best way to decide what is appropriate. ”
Elizabeth,
I agree with your first sentence. Praying for GOD’S wisdom and guidance is the best thing you can do. In fact, we shouldn’t dare try to make any sort of decisions without “consulting” Him first.
About the survey though, I’d have to say this: listening to our brothers’ responses won’t “decide” anything for us. It will alert us about aspects of modesty many of us may never have considered; it may show some of us areas where we need to confess our sinful motivations (i.e. subconsciously wanting to attract attention by wearing an article of clothing, etc.); and, most importantly, it may be a conscience-pricker. We might hesitate to purchase something or act a certain way because we have seen that many/most of our brothers have difficulty with ________ (whatever the piece/style/attitude is).
Ultimately, the decision is up to US. The survey isn’t being used as a dictatorial opinion we have to hold over our heads. We should listen to what they have to say, weigh it against God’s word and our parents’ guidance, and then make the decision.
I hope you can see that I’m not criticizing you or anyone else. In fact, I second your opinion, Elizabeth, about talking to parents, brothers, sisters, etc., FIRST. They are often your God-given counselors; listen to what they have to say.
But, also remember that we’re instructed to HELP each other along the way; that includes rebuke (if need be) about the immodest way we might dress. Perhaps this survey can change the way that many girls (and even guys) think today. The problem with lust will always be there, no matter what. And, unfortunately, the problem with immodesty will always be there too.
(Please understand, I’m not pointing fingers at anyone or at either gender. Sin lies in all of our hearts. We must turn to God for help, and then seek the answers that He has given us, through His Word, and our brethren.)
January 26th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Wow…that comment was long….
Sorry if I said too much.
January 26th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Alex and Brett,
Thank you for this post: for being honest, but responding to those comments in a gentle way. I think you are responding the way Jesus would and that excites me just as much or more as your stand for biblical manhood and womanhood. Keep up the good work. It’s Him you need to please.
A Sister.
January 26th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
This is so interesting… reading the comments, I mean. It seems like a lot of people commenting are from the states, so let me give it from another perspective…
Here in China, and around most of the world, American women especially are viewed mainly as sex objects. Why? Because of the way they dress to emphasize their sexuality. Honestly, most American girls and women, even Christian ones, really don’t care at all. Here in China, there are two main stereotypes of American women. 1) they’re all Christians. 2) they all dress immodestly. When I moved here, dressing modestly was in itself a testimony to the people around me. They were shocked by the way I dressed because I didn’t flaunt anything and the way that I dressed brought up a lot of questions. Many unbelievers were asking me, “Why do you dress like that? What difference does it make?”
Although sometimes it seems hard to believe, the way that we dress really does make a difference. It has an impact on the way that people view the Christian religion. It has an impact on the way people treat us. Most importantly it has an impact on our testimonies. A lot of people who don’t agree with this survey are bringing up helping poor needy people, orphans, etc… I don’t think anyone saying those things really realizes that they way that you dress has as much an impact on those people as what you do! It’s unbelievable how many times I’ve had the opportunity to share Christ simply because I was dressing modestly.
For feminists out there… Do you really think that dressing in an overtly sexual manner helps your cause for femminism? It only makes the rest of the world think of you as a sex object. You’ll notice that the powerful women in the world, women who are respected and have made a difference all dress modestly and professionally. It’s generally not considered “professional” to wear skin tight suits, fishnet stockings, and mini-skirts! If you really want to make a cause for femminism, then dress like you can make a difference in the world! Dressing like Britney Spears doesn’t say “I’m powerful”. It says “I’m an immature girl”.
January 26th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
I have not taken the time to read all the comments through. I just wanted to say that anytime you do “hard things” for God’s glory you will be ridiculed. I want to encourage Alex and Brett in this project and thank them for all the hard work they have put into this. THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!! I look forward to seeing the results.
January 26th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
Like one of the other girls said above, this survey is not about us. It is not about the boys taking it and it is not about the girls that set up the questions. It is about God. If we are trying to dress modestly to please those around us, we will fail, just as if we dress immodestly to please those around us and ultimately “feel good” about ourselves, we WILL fail. That is why it is so important that the focus should be on pleasing God and giving HIM the glory for the bodies that HE has given us. When we become Christians, we are not our own anymore. We are Gods, and a son naturally tries to please his father.
Note: There is no way that any of us could look like clones! : ) God made us all so different, and even if we were all similar on the outside, the different personalities and passions that He has given us on the inside make us unique and special to Him and to those around us.
It is obvious to me that this is a matter of the heart. Ultimately, what is on the inside is what matters. And I truly believe that if our heart and our desires are aligned with those of God’s, we won’t be constantly struggling on the outside.
I helped contribute to the questions that so many godly young men are responding to right now. There are a couple reasons I am so excited that this survey is taking place. First, Girls! look at the response that this survey has gotten- over 1500 men have been involved. That is over 1500 men that care and are concerned about how you dress. That is 1500 men saying that they appreciate your concerns for gaurding them against temptations, even temptations that we wouldn’t normally think about! That is what some of the more detailed questions are there for that some people might take offense to. But please remember, the people that set up this survey accomplished what they did through a lot of thought and council, and I’m sure that the questions that made it through to the final survey were given much prayer.
Second, just because we are trying to be modest, that doesn’t mean that we give up the personal styles that God has ingrained into us. God has made us to desire and love beauty. That is why guys like us!!! : ) This survey is not meant to become a law. Christ has set us free. But we can’t lead our brothers in Christ back into bondage. Modesty helps. We don’t have to be legalistic, but just as a girl asks her brother or dad about a new dress or shirt, this survey gives girls the opportunity to ask further questions that have been laid on their hearts.
Thank you rebulutionaries! I have enjoyed being involved in this process, and it is great to be united with other brothers and sisters in Christ who want to make a difference. That is what this survey is about.
January 26th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Chrisf:
You asked a very good question on the difference between “attraction” and “lust.”
As mentioned earlier, attraction essentially allows pure thoughts. You are attracted to the person’s character, personality - sure, even their beauty. With lust, someone is attractive because of some temporal satisfaction you can get from thinking about them. I think the *biggest* difference is that a guy who is genuinely attracted to a girl thinks of her as a *person* not as an *object* for gratification.
I hope that makes sense!
January 26th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
As a sister in Christ, I try my best to dress with modesty and care - and even though it’s hard sometimes, it’s totally worth it. I try to make sure whenever I wear or try things on that it is really honoring Christ. Thanks so much to all the guys doing the survey, it really helps to know that guys notice when a girl dresses with modesty
Alex and Brett - Thanks so much for doing this Modesty Survey!! It’s a wonderful thing that you’re doing, it means a lot = ) Keep up the good work!
January 26th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
“If you really have any more objections, please elaborate further.”
KatrinaRowe (Martin) and Veronica,
Thank you for responding in a gentle way. It is not my wish to get into an argument here.
Let me say again that the motives behind the survey are commendable.
As for elaboration – I do not want my brother (or my brothers in the Lord) thinking about and determining what forms a stumbling block to his purity (he agrees and has not looked at the survey). He is forced to think about it enough as it is.
The Holy Spirit is the best and only perfect counselor, so I think all modesty questions can be answered without asking teen boys (even anonymously).
Like I said, there is too much discussion about modesty and lust on the web as it is, so I won’t be adding to its mass with more comments on the subject. I am sorry if this is not enough elaboration, but it will have to do.
Thanks again for a soft answer. I respect the Rebelution and the motivation behind the Modesty Survey, and although I disagree with the method, I will praise God for any good that may come from it.
January 26th, 2007 at 8:26 pm
Alix: I enjoyed your comment very much. And I would have to agree with you on a large part of it. There are some things I would have said diffrently, but then again, I am not you.
Thank God he gave us all are own minds, bodys, spirits, and Opinions! If He hadn’t, this world would be a VERY boring place.
Speaking of opinions, I cannot wait to read all of them by my brothers in Christ. I’m sure they will all be helpful. Even if some people do not agree with that sentence.
To the Harris’s family,
May God continue to Challenge you in your walk so you will never grow ‘comfortable’ in your faith. God bless you all.
In Christ,
Charlene V.
January 27th, 2007 at 12:38 am
David McKay: “And the world would be a boring place if all women dressed the same way.”
Well…I am glad that God created man in His own image, but he still made each one of us so unique and special in His eyes. I stand in awe of Him when I see the snowflakes falling, and think that there is no other snowflake in all of the world like any of the ones I can see…and if God cared enough about the little details of snowflakes, how much more does this awesome God care about us?!
I highly doubt whether this or any survey could make people who read it clones…especially not passively…but I think that God created each of us different, so no matter what we wear - even if every girl in the world wore the same exact dress - we would STILL be different. God created us that way. Behind each dress is a jewel that God created - wearing boring clothes doesn’t take away from the true beauty of a girl, rather, I would argue that it ADDS to it - that God would so impress on a girl’s heart to wear more modest clothes to protect young men’s hearts, that they would be willing to give up their “cooler” clothes, and their desire for attention, to protect a young man’s heart from destructive thoughts…
I don’t believe that wearing different clothes necessarily makes us a different person. But wearing more modest clothes is more of a sign of respect for young men and obedience to God (seeing how we ARE supposed to set an example in, among other things, PURITY).
I would encourage you to look deeper than the outward appearances - and at the heart. Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting, but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised. Instead of possibly thinking what you may loose from all of the girls who will try to change the way they dress from this effect survey, I would encourage you to look for those girls who are “going against the flow” and who ARE wearing looser shirts and pants, or modest dresses…and thank them. It is encouraging for us girls to hear that every now and again!
Anyway, I didn’t really think all of this out before I wrote it, so I hope it makes sense! I hope I don’t come across as harsh in any way - and I am NOT just talking to one person…this is a “chocolate covered observation” I am bringing to you (as the girls in my church are so fond of saying)!
Enjoy!
January 27th, 2007 at 6:37 am
I personally have not been crazy over the modesty survey idea. I don’t think it’s going to hurt anything, but it seems a little over-particular and unnecessary. The Bible says to ‘dress modestly’ and doesn’t get into specifics. I think it doesn’t go into particulars for at least two reasons- for one, the Bible is cross-cultural, and modesty is relative to different cultures. For intance, in some Midle Eastern countries, exposing the ankles may cause men to stumble, while in America, 99% of the male population could care less about ankles. For Christians in the those Middle Eastern countries, it would be important to dress modestly from their perspective.
Secondly, while practicing modesty I think we should be more concerned about the spirit of modesty than a list of dos and don’ts. We all probably have a pretty good idea of whats modest or not.
But then maybe I wrong.
However, one thing that really suprised me here was people’s comments about mens reactions to immodesty. Many of the commentors expressed the idea that men have little to no control over lustful thoughts when seeing a female body. They said we were ‘built this way’ or it’s ‘hardwired into us’ etc. We are not hardwired to be sinful! Such an idea is, I believe, a slap in the face of Christ. God did not create men to be sinful, men choose to be sinful because sin is so present in our world. As Christains, we’ve been given victory over sin and the flesh and have been told to ‘Sin no more” (See Romans 6). If we start thinking sexual thoughts when an ill-clad female passes by, it no one’s fault but ours, and we are insulting the grace of God that has given us freedom from sin. Guys generally take lust far too lightly and label it natural and unaviodable- Sin is not natural for a Christian- we are dead to it!
Anyway, that’s what I think.
James
January 27th, 2007 at 8:49 am
It appears that there are many comments conveying the message that this is too detailed and constraining. My heart is just as tempted to cringe and feel “constrained” by hearing observations on modesty. I can hear myself thinking, “We’re not even allowed to wear anything beautiful?!”. However, I know that perspective is warped. Beauty isn’t what the Scripture is forbidding!! And where there are restraints, they’re for my good! Thanks, Alex & Brett, for helping us make every effort to pursue godliness in this area! I appreciate the time and care you are putting into this topic.
January 27th, 2007 at 11:37 am
Katrina: That was beautiful, true and moving. Thanks for the perspecitve!
RobertK and others: Thanks for explaining better your thoughts.
I find it interesting how much some people have got riled up over this. Thanks so much all your guys willing to share your thoughts and opinions. I want and need to walk in incorruptable beauty, this is very much so helpful. One of the biggest lies that I believe is that if I don’t dress somewhat immodestly I won’t be notested. But luckily I have friends and parents that always keep those thoughts in line. There is a HUGE difference between attraction on lust.
January 27th, 2007 at 11:57 am
Mel said:”To be sure, our bodies are attractive to men, but not to the point of BAM! instant lust.”
I’m sorry but that’s just not perfectly true. Ask any honest guy. Some images instantly bring hard lust battles. It’s really hard to control it, or conquer those thoughts. It takes lots of effort, practise, and willpower!
I don’t think God created us that way, I think it’s part of our fallen nature, the nature we inherited from our sinning parents.
January 27th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
Hmm… I understand what the Harris boys are trying to do. However, I must agree on some points with what the “dude” said in the Harris blog at the top of this page. I am a big believer in beauty, and I think women are the most beautiful thing there is. I just think there is a difference between “tacky exposure” (Brittany with no underwear, juck!) and “sexy”. Think Charlize Theron versus Paris Hilton. I have less problems with strapless, stilleto,(sp) and short skirts IF its worn with a lady-like attitude. Again, I think its not always WHAT you wear, but HOW you wear it. I think you can wear a beautiful stapless gown or a above-the-knee (omg, don’t freak out!) skirt if you have the right body type, and you are a lady about it. Aside the point, if this Modesty Survey was “successfull” it would mean the girls would have to go with the “most modest” common denominator, meaning some ultra-conservative boy could dictate the wardrobe of some poor girl who has no father or mother to tell them they look beautiful, or educate them in HOW to wear certain things with a lady like attitude. It sounds good on the surface, but its a quick-fix.
Scott
Just remember they don’t have all the answeres, even if there last name is Harris 
Ok guys, I know you are trying to do this in a humble way, and I am a fan of the rebulution, just don’t let it go to ya heads. Peace.
P.S. I have met and interacted with both alex and bret, and they are very nice young men. But, they are YOUNG men.
January 27th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
I am new to this site and if it were not for my friend I am not be here. I have to say this is very encouraging to me because while I know many girls care about how they affect males it does not show outside of forums like this.
I wonder where we would be as Christians if we really followed to Bible. Woman are commanded to be modest just the same as men are to love. The biggest disappointment to me is that we attack the symptoms rather than the disease. For years modesty has been an issue and society has tried to push the line to test what is okay without crossing that line. But it has been the Femenist movement that has really advanced issues in the Christian woman. Femenism is based on two things Fear and Pride. Neither are good…. one side says it is my right to act, dress, and ect and who are you to tell me I can’t do this; while the fear side is more valid because it taps into the natural fear woman run into about submission to men. I have seen and heard from girls a fear of being devalued. If we as men embraced that I believe that woman would get rid of Femenism all together. Check this out Femenism gave woman the right to work, vote, and has pushed the idea that woman can control men with their sexuality. The Bible says submit to every ordinace of Government that means it was never run for woman not to work or vote but it was wrong for woman to rebel against those standards. Now I am not saying it is wrong for woman to vote or work…. neither is right or wrong but there are responciblities to the family that can effect those things. The last part that Femenism pushes is about being sexy. Sexy is the product of Lust! I pains me everytime I hear people sing Justin Timberlakes “I’m bringing Sexy Back” song. Such songs should not be on the lips of a Christian. Most of womans clothing these days has one purpose behind it, that is to make the wearer look sexy. I wish that girls would pay attention to this, yet every time I have told a girl how an artical came about i hear the same responce…”I just don’t over analyse things” But what about “if anyone makes anyone of my Childern stumble it would be better for that person that a milstone be hung around their neck and the be drowned in the dept of the sea” I am not one who thinks that girls have to hide their curves but there does need to be more concern for what is going on. Girls I want to say this because it seems to be something that girls do not understand… but a thong is never modest and we know when you are wearing them because your posture changes. When a guy sees a girl wearing a thong it tells him that she is willing to have sex with him without commitment. You may be only wearing it to hide underwear lines but the message it sends is not what you may be wanting to say. Everything you wear will tell a guy about who you are. Nothing is more beautiful than a woman seeking God. Girls another important thing that many may disagree with but trust the guys that God has put in your life ….there is not one Biblical woman that did not have a Man by her side. When you are married you are a team with that guy and are his support if you do not learn how to follow while single you will struggle to in marriage. Know this now it is the guys responciblity to fight lust and it should not matter if you are walking around naked to him… but none of us guys are perfect and God made to want to see all of your body not just the intimate parts… the girl who commented about leaves is following something besides the Bible because it says that man covered himself with the leaves and GOD clothed man; with what we do not know but look at the law and you can see it covered most of the body. Like all things modest begin in the heart. Trying to be sexy is giving into the lust of the flesh and causing guys to have to fight the lust of the eyes which will lead to the lust of the flesh fast. Proverbs says do not assoicate with those given to change…I think it is time that we start paying more attention to what God has given us and lay down the pride that we follow. Girls also know that when men struggle with Lust it stops them from taking care of the things that really matter like the poor and peoples salvation….. the way you dress and act could cost someone else from hearing the Gosple, please note that I did not say will but could. God calls us to not have even a hint of lust in our lives…. seeking the opposite sexes attention is lustful so think about that the next time you get dressed men and women.
January 27th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Thanks for leaving the survery open a little longer. I’d like to finish it tomorrow or Monday.
I’d love to remark upon previous comments, and share my own thoughts, but don’t have the time.
Thank you for the survey, and thank you, Sisters in Christ, who are trying to rebel against low expectations!
January 27th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Eleonore: I’m not sure what you mean when you say that Alex and Brett’s picture is provocative. Could you please explain that?
I think that each of us (including myself) should be careful of how our comments come across. Often, people (again, including myself) post our opinions too strongly and it comes across the wrong way. This is just my opinion. Everyone is going to have different views on what is modest and what isn’t and that’s okay. Modesty is very important to me and I am thankful that Alex and Brett (and the whole survey team) have put this together. My dad is not involved in my life and I have no brothers so it is very hard for me to determine what is considered modest and what is not. I do my best to be modest, but am sometimes unsure. Thanks to all the guys who have (and will) answered the questions. I truly appreciate it.
January 27th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
Another thing I would like to add: Girls, dressing modestly doesn’t mean that we have to wear frumpy clothing and look like grandma’s.
You can make a low cut shirt modest by wearing a tank top under it or by wearing layers. It is hard to find modern and stylish clothing that is modest, but, if we try hard enough, we can make that fun, stylish shirt into something that is modest. Just thought I’d share my opinion on that.
January 27th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
Isaac,
The Chivalry experiment—in which women who dressed modestly were treated with more respect by potential male employers than the immodest—that I talked about was one of Dr. William Altermatt’s subjects of research in the previous year. Please contact him if you wish to use it. A summary of his research is posted here–anyone who’s interested can read it and look at his powerpoint: http://vault.hanover.edu/~altermattw/research/overview.htm
He can be contacted at altermattw@hanover.edu —this is email–if you wish to know specifics. Dr. A has always maintained some religious ambiguity, so I don’t know how helpful he’ll be if you or any admins wish to use his research.
-A
January 27th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
To be fair, first of all, I believe the “feminist” quotations at the top of this post were cobbled together from multiple responses, not from a single commenter.
There’s a great deal of talk here about “protecting our brothers in Christ”—but as I peruse this entire website, it strikes me as profoundly self-centered. Self-improvement is noble and essential, but I believe that God wants us to better ourselves so that we may in turn better our larger world. I’ve been reading this site for a while now, and the dearth of information on how to make this planet a more literally livable place is surprising.
Millions of people around the world live in poverty, in poor health, under fear of war and brutality. Is an obsessively detailed survey about necklines and swimsuit types really the best tool to “protect our Christian brothers [and sisters]“? Or is it just more palatable and interesting to the average teen than real, hard, challenging resources about how to help alleviate global problems that are a whole lot more devastating than a few lustful thoughts in the brain? If you’re a true Christian, your “siblings” extend far beyond the readers of this website—but honestly, gentlemen, you wouldn’t know it from most of the texts posted here.
Even if you accept the premise of the survey, you have to question the priorities.
January 27th, 2007 at 7:50 pm
I just wanted to say really quickly…
Thanks for what you guys are doing to help us girls out, in spite of all the flack you’ve received from females. There are many of us who really do appreciate it!
In Christ,
~Brianna
January 27th, 2007 at 9:07 pm
Joanne,
It was very interesting reading your perspective. I really haven’t given much thought to some of those things before in connection with The Rebelution. After actually giving it some careful thought, however, these are some of the conclusions that I came to:
In order to effectively “change the world” for Christ, we must “take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.”
2 Corinthians 10:5 says, “Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.”
We will never be able to “change the world” or “solve global problems” if we are not first able to govern ourselves according to the Scriptures. We are commanded to live holy lives and to conform to the image of Christ.
Romans 12:2 says, “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
How will we influence others for the cause of Christ, thereby changing the world? By proving “what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” This is done not by being conformed to this world, but by being transformed by the renewing of our minds.
Things must be done in God’s way in God’s timing. As young people, we need to examine every area of our lives and ask God to reveal to us those areas that are not held captive by Him.
This survey deals with the area of each of our lives called “modesty.” It is just one of many aspects of our lives that must be submitted to the Lord, in accordance with His written Word.
I don’t know if you saw the comment way up there from a girl who strives to dress modestly. In her comment, she mentioned how many times she has been asked the reason for “the hope that lies within her” simply because she dresses modestly when those around her don’t. What a testimony … what an influence on others for Christ!
Joanne, in your own comment, you ask:
“Is an obsessively detailed survey about necklines and swimsuit types really the best tool to ‘protect our Christian brothers [and sisters]‘? Or is it just more palatable and interesting to the average teen than real, hard, challenging resources about how to help alleviate global problems that are a whole lot more devastating than a few lustful thoughts in the brain?”
First of all, the questions were not asked by Alex and Brett, but were sent in by girls all over the world. They deal with things that these girls really have questions about. (My purpose in this post is neither to condone nor to criticize the survey.)
Second, sometimes it can be much more difficult to change aspects of our own lives than to try to solve other people’s problems. Giving up something that we like (i.e. immodest dress) takes a lot of guts and determination!
Lastly, and most importantly, I would say that “a few lustful thought in the brain” were devastating enough to bring ruin (or at least severe damage) to many of the great men in the Bible. We cannot ignore the fact that those “few lustful thoughts in the brain” many times lead to other physical sins. When David saw Bathsheeba, he lusted after her … just a “few lustful thoughts in his brain.” But look where those “few lustful thoughts in the brain” took him. He committed adultery with another man’s wife, committed murder, and lost his own son … all the results of “a few lustful thoughts in the brain.”
I would also like to point out that those “few lustful thoughts in the brain” were not entirely of David’s doing. Bathsheeba was bathing on a rooftop. She was not being discreet or modest. Please understand, though, that I am not saying that David’s thoughts and actions were excused by this.
Also, Jesus said in Matthew 5:28, “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” Those “few lustful thoughts in the brain” are considered to be adultery. It is very important to notice that this verse says, “committed adultery WITH her already.” That reveals that women have at least some responsibility to guard and protect the hearts of the men around them. Which brings us right back to the modesty survey….
Joanne, please don’t take any of this as being said with a spirit of antagonism. I have truly enjoyed getting some of my thoughts down on “paper.” Thank you for your thought-provoking post!
Lauren
January 27th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
I second what Brianna C. has said! I’m just greatful you guys are willing to take the time to serve all us! Your blog and website has been such a blessing to me!
January 27th, 2007 at 9:17 pm
Ladies, it’s not about us being “comfortable,” as I heard mentioned a few times. It’s not about making a fashion statement. We’re supposed to be making a character statement! How you dress reflects on your character! And your character, as Christians, reflects on Christ! Just know that how you dress, not only might cause your brother to sin, you must realize that the young men of the world are looking too. I work in a secular workplace and attend a secular college and I’ve had guys tell me that they can tell I’m different by the way I dress. Your attire can either be a witness for Christ or against Him. You choose.
We are called to encourage and build up the body of Christ and to be a light to the world around us. As women, lets take our eyes off ourselves and what makes us feel good or “beautiful” and focus on how God would have us act. He has done so much for us, it shouldn’t be a “chore” to honor Him with our lives, and in this case, our dress.
Awesome job guys! God bless and keep it up!
January 28th, 2007 at 1:17 am
Thank you, Alex and Brett, for facilitating this survey; and thank you to everyone who has participated. I came across a link to it on a friend’s blog.
I am excited to read the survey results because it is encouraging to me to see that 1500 men actually do care how women dress and our willing to help us understand how we can be more modest. For the past 10 years I have made a conscious effort to dress modestly for the glory of God. I want to dress modestly because the Bible says to (1 Tim 2:9 - keywords: modest apparel *do a greek word study*). The Bible also says that man looks on the outward appearence, but God looks on the heart (1 Sam 16:7b). It also says that our actions reflect our heart (Matt 12:35 and Prov 27:19). So, modesty is essentially a matter of the heart - reflected in our outward appearance (what do your clothes say about you?). Dressing modestly is important in and of itself, but to please God it must come from the heart (Jeremiah 17:10) otherwise it is hypocrisy.
When buying clothes I consider two questions, would wearing this outfit bring glory to God, or attract more attention for myself (He must increase, I must decrease)? And, would wearing this outfit be a loving expression to my brothers in Christ, aiding them in their fight for purity in thought, word, and deed? I am not responsible for their thoughts, but if my choice of clothing makes their struggle for purity more difficult, I will be held accountable for my part (Luke 17:1, Romans 14:21, and 1 Corinthians 8:9-12).
One last thing…I am a daughter of the most high King and as His representative I should not be ill-kept or frumpy in my dress/grooming habits. Nor should I allow things of lesser importance (i.e. clothes) to distract me from focusing on my Lord (Matthew 6:31-33 and Hebrews 12:2)
January 28th, 2007 at 1:40 am
Grace: You brought up a very good point, that men of the world are also looking at the way we dress. And they do see a difference when we dress modestly. I have multiple opportunities to be in other countries on missions and they notice there, too. When I was in Ethioipia a year and a half ago I had more than one person ask me why I didn’t dress like other Americans (like they see on TV); and one man even told me that he could see Christ reflected in the way I dress - this man wasn’t even a Christian, but several weeks after I got home I received an email with the wonderful news of his conversion. Even here in America, modest dress has opened the door for me to witness of Christ and the wonderful change He has wrought in my life. I have even had perfect strangers approach me on the sidewalk and ask me to pray for urgent needs.
January 28th, 2007 at 5:13 am
A few thoughts, as I claim to be a feminist of faith:
1) I operate under the premise that this survey was created by ladies who want to help our male peers live a life which honors God. Guys,
some of these questions should really be upsetting to you. Friends, daughters, and sisters are asking if merely walking, sitting (in multiple
positions), and wearing immodest clothing around one’s own family(!) inspires male lust. If we are all capable of controlling our impulses,
these questions seem to indicate that guys (on average) are failing more often than the ladies. I fail too, but that is a part of life. The
thing is, I can opt to avoid some of the things that I feel are inconsistent with my beliefs but I must always face up to challenges. These
challenges (aka “stumbling blocks”) help me grow into a stronger person.
A couple questions for the boys and men:
How often do you ask which of your behaviors and clothing (mostly clothing) inspire the ladies to sin? Are you concerned often about how
your body might inspire others to do wrong? Or are you more concerned about how your words and deeds impact those around you?
Do you think your answers are impacted by cultural expectations surrounding gender?
2) Modesty can be an outward expression of a commitment to God, what feels comfortable that day, conformity to the current culture
(which tells us that only certain bodies should be displayed) or conformity to a counterculture (which, I feel, this website falls under). I will
not consider the opinion of 1500 strangers as a significent factor into my clothing choices. This is not to say that other’s do not impact
what I wear. When I attend ballroom dance class, I make sure my back is covered so my non-voluntary partner is not required to touch a
lot of skin. When I go to a job interview, I wear a blazer to look professional. The thing is, my halter dress and snow jacket have nothing
to do with how I glorify God. Oh, and my body is never, ever for sale-no matter how long, short, or slitted my skirt is.
3) I feel that viewing yourself or another person as property violates human dignity. For this reason, I reject the idea that I am requesting
sexual advances, harrassment, or assult when I wear certain clothing. I also do not believe that my mind, heart, or soul changes with
something as trivial as a different outfit.
4) I am concerned that walking with humility is being mistaken for peer validation by this survey. Getting support from other’s sharing in
your struggle is very different from advocating (even mildly) that bystanders should clear your path. I fear that this survey supports the
latter instead of the former.
5) I will leave the issues in the article “Feminism and Bibical Roles” alone (I read it. Most Feminism 101 explanations by Christian feminists
deviate widely from this description.) I will, however, address the comment in the center of this article. I actually think a lot of it is
hyperbole. Some of the issues raised have been addressed. Still not sure what it has to do with feminism or feminist thought. Is the
author a feminist perhaps?
As I read on, I found that we agree on something. Acting subservient to make others like you is spineless.
And then it became:
“While we gladly tolerate differing opinions, and even attacks on ourselves, these kinds of comments (e.g. girls who care about modesty
are “spineless”) can come across as ridiculing the very girls the authors are apparently concerned for.”
I ridicule the idea that you can look at a person’s clothes and tell whether they are spineless or not.
Feel free to discuss or expand upon any points of contention or agreement.
January 28th, 2007 at 5:14 am
Apologies for the poor structure, Notepad doesn’t always work in your favor ;).
January 28th, 2007 at 9:29 am
Christina: Thanks that was great. Dido!
January 28th, 2007 at 9:34 am
“Since we live in a fallen world, and because of the commands of Scripture, we can conclude that modesty (in dress and action, for both men and women), is important. ”
I understand that. Of course modesty is good. But modesty *should* be about being polite, appropriate for the occasion, not trying to be all “look at me!”…NOT about making it easier for men not to lust. It’s the mindset of men, caused by both the fall and the awful culture we live in, that makes them lust, NOT women’s bodies being exposed. Men need to change their mindset about women’s bodies first and foremost.
Also, we do sometimes have to “compromise” with a sinful world… we can’t walk around naked wherever we please because people think nudity is evil and bad and inherently sexual; however, we really should change OUR thinking. We need to free ourselves from the idiocy and the harmful ways of the world… even if we can only do so in how we think.
“I’m sorry but that’s just not perfectly true. Ask any honest guy. Some images instantly bring hard lust battles. It’s really hard to control it, or conquer those thoughts. It takes lots of effort, practise, and willpower!
I don’t think God created us that way, I think it’s part of our fallen nature, the nature we inherited from our sinning parents.”
But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try to change the mindset that causes instant lust (seeing women’s bodies as inherently sexual). And the holy spirit will be more than willing to help! God is continually working in us to help us overcome sin nature, whatever form it takes in us.
January 28th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
I’m new to this site and I’m already liking it alot. Any place, online or real life, with true believers is a blessing.
I’m also thrilled that so many Christian guys and girls are willing to take a stand and be honest about modesty.
Just a few thoughts:
So there was the 90’s fad of “WWJD?”. To turn it around a bit, what would YOU do, or how would you dress, if you lived at a time when you could see Jesus in person? Regardless of social norms of that ancient time, would you be comfortable with how you’re dressed in front of Jesus?
But it’s no different now. As we all know, just because Christ isn’t in a physical body, it doesn’t mean we He can’t see us.
I’m glad someone mentioned that even if everyone dressed modesty, the issue of lust wouldn’t be solved. That’s so true. Guys, the girls have a command to dress modestly, and we have a command to keep our hearts and minds pure, whether a girl is dressed modestly or not. Of course, only God can give us and girls the power to do anything at all.
Last of all, it’s so great to see both guys and girls working together to help eachother out on this issue. Praise God.
January 28th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
Let me put in my two cents. (It might turn out to be more like fifteen cents when I’m done, though, lol) The whole ‘fig leaf’ and ‘nudity’ thing represented in Genesis has seemed to come up reacurringly. ‘RobertK’ seemed to get a pretty good conception of it, although the shedding of the animals blood was an atoning sacrifice; what Christ would eventually be. My pastor was preaching about God as the Father, and Adam and Eve’s account was in his sermon. Since they came into existance, all Adam and Eve possessed was a ‘God-focus’. He was thier Father who deeply loved them, and they couldn’t wait for the cool of the day to arrive to be able to walk with Him. Immediatly after eating the fobidded fruit, they “realized that they were naked” because their eyes snapped out of focus on God and averted into a focus on themselves. With the sinful nature came the birth of the idol of ’self’. That’s why modesty (and immodesty) exist! We as Christians must try to perpetually restore the ‘God-focus’ to ourselves, and in thurn the world. How on earth will we be to effectively live as examples if what we wear brings focus to ourselves instead of God?!
I’m so pleased that our generation is constantly being changed all for the glory of God.
-Erika
January 28th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
Okay I’m sorry I just saw the post by Eleanor saying that Alex and Brett’s picture is provocative. I realize this depends on the girl but like 99% of girls would strongly disagree with you. Alex and Brett are both attractive guys (y’all probably love reading all this. lol jk) but come on it is just a picture of their face. How can that be provocative? Is it because they wear the trends of our society? Eleanor there comes a point when women need to take responsibility for their own problems. If a man commented on a women being provocative by just a picture of her face everybody would be in an outrage. You must be able to control you own heart in this way, there are cute guys out there Elenore and they are not going to go away.
January 28th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
Hey guys,
Great site! I am looking very forward to seeing the results of the Modesty Survey. I am thankful for the input that my dad and my brother offer regarding the modesty of what I wear and it’ll be great to see what literally hundreds of other Christian brothers have to say about the topic.
I read through the survey and didn’t see anything related to this topic so I figured I’d ask here. Do guys find that they are not as stumbled by girls who are “curvy”, as pop culture puts it, or does the body shape of the girl really not matter?
Thanks for facilitating the survey. I’m encouraged and inspired to continue dressing modestly (though that doesn’t necessarily mean “frumpy” or “not trendy”) in order to serve my brothers as we serve the Savior!!
~ Nicole
January 28th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
One reason I dress modestly is because I want to be respected, both by my Christian brothers and unsaved men. Women only contribute to the pop culture objectification they’re “offended” at by dressing in a way that says to men (and other women) “Look at what I’ve got.” Puh-lease. I would think feminists would want to fight against women dressing immodestly.
January 28th, 2007 at 8:45 pm
Eleanor said: “I think men should have a survey like this, too. The clothing of today is equally immodest for males as it is for females–even jeans and t-shirts are designed to showcase the male body. You have chests, hair, facial hair (or stubble), shoulders and butts, and so many wear provocative scents, even in deodorant–and it all attracts women. So please, cover it up, modestly, loosely! I’m also surprised at Alex and Brett for having such provocative pictures of themselves on the site (see above). The Christian sisters need help, as well! Please, please make a survey like this for the brothers!”
Elizabeth Cuneo said: “Okay I’m sorry I just saw the post by Eleanor saying that Alex and Brett’s picture is provocative. I realize this depends on the girl but like 99% of girls would strongly disagree with you. Alex and Brett are both attractive guys (y’all probably love reading all this. lol jk) but come on it is just a picture of their face. How can that be provocative? Is it because they wear the trends of our society? Eleanor there comes a point when women need to take responsibility for their own problems. If a man commented on a women being provocative by just a picture of her face everybody would be in an outrage. You must be able to control you own heart in this way, there are cute guys out there Elenore and they are not going to go away.”
I would tend to agree with Elizabeth, Eleanor. I would agree that a survey for the guys would be neat, and I believe the “brains” are thinking about it…however, I feel that girls often just don’t struggle as much with guys’ dressing habits (and grooming habits?) as guys do…BUT it could be just me. However, I do tend to be more visual, I believe, than some girls…but, I don’t know…I just don’t tend to struggle as much with guys having stubble (?) or shoulders (they can’t really help that…)…or even most scented deoderants (the ones I DO have a problem with are just abnoxiously scented…not really what I would call provocative. The ones that smell ok just give me the impression that the guy takes showers…which is good.). I believe too that guys should try to dress cleanly and crisply - not like guys right off the street…
Maybe I feel this way because I’m homeschooled and all the guys at our church (well…99%) are striving after the attributes of Biblical Masculinity and are seeking to honor us girls in every way possible. However, just because I’ve been blessed DOESN’T mean that I’m not still human. I still struggle with human sin (don’t we all), but God’s grace is bigger that my sin and it is on Him that I constantly must lean…and he guides me!
As for Alex and Brett’s photo…well, I’m not saying that it isn’t possible to struggle with the photo…however, I personally can’t see that photo with the label “provocative”! If that photo is provacative, then I’d have to say that about 90% of all photos I’ve seen have been “provocative”…I’m talking about our family photos by the way!
I understand that we were made to be attracted to guys (and vice-versa) and there ARE many attractive guys out there, as Elizabeth nicely stated! However, there DOES come a point in all of our lives (though probably for each of us, it would be MANY different things) when we have to search our own hearts and ask God to reveal our own sin. Many times I can get side-tracked and begin to find “fault” in others, when really, it is my OWN sin that I don’t want to really deal with, and that is clouding my view.
I would recommend a book (strangely enough, by Joshua Harris…funny thing…) called, “Sex Is Not The Problem, Lust Is” if you haven’t already read it.
There ARE some things that just need to change (like girls wearing super tight shirts or pants that have letters across the back…to purposefully draw attention to certain parts of their bodies…), but other things only WE can change, with God’s help…and this MAY be one of those things that you and God need to work out together.
God is amazing - and he LOVES you! He really, truly LOVES you! (That is an awesome truth that will never change.)
Thank-you for sharing your heart!
Feel free to send me a private message with any thoughts on what I said!
~Tai
January 28th, 2007 at 9:48 pm
OKAY…To address the “Christian feminist” concerns about modesty and the survey!
#1 I want to quote my herion and dear sister in Christ, Mrs. Jennie Chancy of Ladies Against Feminism….!
“There is no uniform for women in Scripture, and there is a lot of room for creativity and freedom within the commands to be modest, pure, and feminine. We cannot hold others to a man-made standard of dress. If we have personal convictions about clothing, they must be grounded in God’s Word, and we must treat others with charity and grace. Not everyone has reached the same conclusions that we have, and we don’t shun women based upon outward appearances. Jesus dined with prostitutes, calling them to holiness, so we can surely reach out to our neighbors with charity, even if we disagree with their standard of dress! There’s no such thing as a “Christian Taliban” when it comes to modest dress.
#2 The modesty survey was not wholly the idea of Alex and Brett! It was actually the idea of one of the young ladies in the Rebelution forum…AND, all the young ladies wanted to partake and asked a zillion questions. Alex and Brett and their survey team worked really hard to sift out any “questionable” or “repeative” questions that would be an issue!
#3 When the young men where asked if they wanted to partake, they willingly volunteered.
#4 The heart of the survey has been of the upmost purest intent. Alex and Brett are gracefully using their forum, their blog, their time to serve those of us who want this survey.
#5 To those of you who don’t like it. Sorry!
#6 Alex and Brett! I know you are enjoying all of this
I know I am! 
January 28th, 2007 at 10:36 pm
So. Let me get this straight. God made women to be attractive to men, and created men to be helpless in their desire for women, and then he decided that they have to cover that attractiveness and suppress those desires as much as possible in their everyday contact.
That’s like making a watch and threatening to smash it for ticking. Either you lot think that capricious sadism is an admirable thing in a deity, or you’re justifying your own discomfort with human sexuality by blaming it on God.
Have fun with that, then.
January 28th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
I haven’t read all 118 comments thus far, but I just want to give the guys an idea of what modesty means to many girls.
Can any of you men think that it is easy to looks through fashionable magazines and know that we probably will never be able to wear any of items advertised? Especially when we do have bodies that would look attractive in it?
Do you think it is any easier to choose not to purchase that darling dress that accentuates our small waist, long legs, and gives a good peep at our cleavage? And instead take home the longer and looser one?
Would you consider it to be more convenient for us to simply grab the first jeans, shirt and jacket that comes out of our closet? Or to have to try on every item and speculate if the pants are loose enough and the shirt is both long and high enough, and that we’re safe to bend over, raise our arms, etc.?
Do you believes we feel more comfortable wearing two extra layers throughout the stifling summer heat? Or find swimming easier in a swim-outfit and a tanktop and shorts over that?
Do you think we don’t go home sometimes and cry over that fact that all the guys just flocked around the girl who was showing her cleavage, midriff and thighs? When they paid no heed to the girl who spent an hour raising her arms, bending over and standing in front of a strong light with various clothing combinations for the sake of those very same guys?
It is really spineless to choose to spend time hiding our ‘attributes’ and discouraging the attention that the world is telling us to revel in?
I know that this all sounds very strong, but I’m not angry at the writer of that comment. These questions are strong because my feelings are strong. Maybe I’m just extra emotional and touchy about this, but it is very hard to go against the flow, to sacrifice the newest fashion and extremely attractive outfits for people who never, or rarely, say ‘thank you.’
January 28th, 2007 at 11:15 pm
littlepeace: You brought up a very good point. The way we dress has a huge impact on the respect that we will receive from others. I see girls all over my college campus all the time who obviously have dressed with the express purpose of turning as many male heads as possible. Believe me, they succeed. Honestly, I am disgusted whenever I see a guy looking at me in an inapropriate way…it truly angers me. That is another reason why I strive to dress as modestly as possible! I heard a saying the other day: Men, honor all ladies. Ladies, be deserving of honor.” Girls, if you want to be looked over like an item on a shelf, be my guest. But if you have any hopes of finding that amazing, Godly guy that will respect and honor you, a big part of it is to dress the part(don’t seek that attention) and be someone he can respect.
January 29th, 2007 at 12:19 am
Jessica Aimes: True beauty comes from within. I’m surprised to hear that you would even want a brother in Christ to have a “good peep” at your cleavage! Or any guy for that matter! Who are you dressing for? We don’t need to wear burkas or floor-length gowns in a wild attempt to “hide our attributes”…but why flaunt them? Sure, the world tells us to dress a certain way, but we need to be seperate from the world.
You say “Do you think we don’t go home sometimes and cry over that fact that all the guys just flocked around the girl who was showing her cleavage, midriff and thighs? When they paid no heed to the girl who spent an hour raising her arms, bending over and standing in front of a strong light with various clothing combinations for the sake of those very same guys?” —- Very good! The one who spent the hours dressing modestly wasn’t causing 15 young men to have disgusting thoughts about her! Who even wants to know what they were thinking about the other half-dressed girl! Why cry over the fact that you honored Christ in preventing those men from sinning? That is cause for rejoicing! I would work on buying only cloths that are God-honoring so that you don’t have to spend those hours making sure your outfit is acceptable.
I don’t want to seem harsh at all! But I would suggest putting down that fashion magazine and picking up your Bible. Develope your inner beauty! The only heads you should turn are those who admire you for your lovely character and God-honoring lifestyle rather than your cleavage or midriff. I can’t even begin to stress the importance of your inner beauty rather than your outward beauty.
Last of all, dear sister, the 1750 men who answered this survey are sending out a resounding thank you! And I know that there are many, many more. Just because you don’t physically hear the words, doesn’t mean it isn’t there. Actually, I send a huge thank you back to them for careing enough to take the time to help us!
I hope I didn’t come across too strongly but I really want to encourage you and all other young ladies to look past our own enjoyment and comfort for the guys who really want to please God.
May God truly bless you as you strive to know Him more!
January 29th, 2007 at 12:55 am
I had a #7
Hey, Alex and Brett…How much did you say your getting paid to do all this work???
January 29th, 2007 at 5:24 am
With all this talk about the provocativeness of Alex and Brett’s picture, I’m surprised that nobody has brought up the provocativeness of the picture for the modesty survey. My dad and brothers thought it was very provocative and blocked the image so they wouldn’t have to see it.
just my .02
Sarah T.
January 29th, 2007 at 7:17 am
You guys some people need to seriously get a grip. I mean this in the nicest way possible. The girl on the modesty survey who has a veil covering part of her face is provocative? I don’t even know where to start with this. Once again we must look at our hearts. A man that is on fire for God should be able to cling to Christ when he has problems with normal pictures. Encourage your brothers to cling to the word and I do believe these pictures will become less of a problem as they continue to further their relationship with Christ.
Erin K. good point!!!! Seriously y’all Brett and Alex are doing us a favor; try not to make them regret it!
Grace, Jessica’s feeling is very real for many Christian women. Women naturally want to feel loved and wanted, it’s how God designed us. I think what Jessica is saying is not that she wants to be a stumbling block to her brother in Christ, indeed she as proven that throughout her comment, but that she longs for the same attention that these girls receive from men. Would it be so hard for a Christian man to say thank you to her just once? She feels as though her efforts have gone unnoticed and is worthless. I agree with you Jessica our brothers in Christ should be more receptive to the idea of modesty and it would be amazing if they said thank you just once. Of course I am not labeling all Christian guys with this problem.
January 29th, 2007 at 11:13 am
What on earth is meant by “provacative”? The picture for the Modesty survey as well as the picture of Alex and Brett are merely images of good-looking humans. They are not dressed immodestly and do not appear to be posing suggestively.
January 29th, 2007 at 11:21 am
I believe that modesty is a way of life. Modest means to be discreet, or not drawing attention. Us women shouldn’t try to get as close to the line of modesty (if there is such thing) as we can, but we should try to stay as far away as possible. God put the drive in men and we should do all that we can to keep them from sinning. Of course they have to do their part, but it makes it a lot easier on them when we do our part. I personally don’t wear tank tops or short shorts or anything low cut because I have some male friends who tell me that it’s hard to see girls dressed that way. It helps to have a dad, male friend, or even a sister to help with modesty. My sister can tell me if she thinks that I’m wearing something immodest or that draws attention. I am very thankful for that.
January 29th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
I have to agree with most of what Jessica says. I know right where you’re coming from, sister!
For me, modesty is defined this way: Whatever I’m confortable in, doesn’t show midriff or cleavage or anything else not meant to have the sun shinin’ on it, and mostly, what I feel Jesus wouldnt be disappointed to see on me if He were to walk into where I am right now. I know it’s hard to shop for cute, modest clothes- not only do they have to be long enough, but for those of us with professional jobs, we have to look nice enough to get respect from our clientele! Anyway, my Dad has always been highly involved in what my sister and I have on. Just the other day, he made me change a shirt than I thought was OK but he said was too tight (and I’m not proud of the fact that it even made it onto my body in the first place.)
Just one thought: Some of us ladies are just a little…curiver…than others. It’s pretty darn hard to find clothes that don’t over-emphasize what we’re already trying to play down! I can’t help the fact that God has made me curvy. I don’t try to emphasize it, but it’s still quite visible. I’m sorry if it causes any guy to sin, but I don’t knowingly try to be all, ‘hey look at meeeee!’
Thanks for putting together the survey, and I’ll definelty be looking for the results! I love it that there’s still some guys who are looking for modest girls. It’s reaffirmation for me in that there don’t seem to be any guys like that in my area!
~Cassandra
January 29th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Grace: I completely agree with you on your past three comments.
Elizabeth Cuneo: In your eyes, and (I have to admit) mine as well, I don’t see how the woman with the veil is provocative either, but to some men it may be.
Everyone: Maybe (including myself) we shouldn’t judge other people (I’m not saying that you all are, but it sometimes comes across that way). Just my 2 cents (for the third or fourth time).
January 29th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Great post, guys. Thanks.
January 29th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
I think someone cropped the picture of Alex and Brett after Eleonore posted. If I remember right, the picture went a bit lower before and they were wearing tightish T-shirts. It wasn’t provocative, in my opinion, but someone could think so without believing everyone should wear turtlenecks and surgical masks all the time.
About the survey: I’m a die-hard egalitarian and I still think it’s great. I wouldn’t do something that I knew would bother most of my fellow girls––so why should it be different with guys? I’m not a chauvinist; if exercising my rights translates into treating half the people around me like dirt, forget it. I wear clothes that *I* consider modest, but I can’t be sure what guys think, because I’ve never been one, nor have I met one ill-mannered enough to tell me “I’m having lustful thoughts about you.”
Although I’ve never liked having my body looked at, modesty is important to me more because I want to be seen than because I want to hide.
If I were having a conversation with a guy I didn’t know, I would *not* want to talk about my body. There are so many interesting things to talk about––books and ambitions and dreams and passions and hobbies and even school––that even from a purely selfish perspective, I’d hate for anyone to find my body distracting. It cost me opportunities to have fun/enlightening conversations with brothers (and sisters, for that matter, because girls don’t always like it when other girls dress immodestly).
January 30th, 2007 at 8:59 am
Jessica Aimes - I know exactly where you are coming from! That is something I have pretty much gotten used to now, but every now and then the flesh rears its head and I start complaining again about how truly hard modesty can be these days. And I know what you mean about the guys flocking around the not-so-modest girls. That was always a very sore spot with me as a teenager…I would do my best to look pretty and still be modest, and I never got any male attention - they always flocked around the pretty, popular, worldly, more immodest girls like bees to honey. However, let me encourage you to keep on keeping on! The kind of young man who would rather spend his time with the “worldly” gals than a godly one is NOT the kind of young man you really want attention from anyways. I eventually met a young man who was drawn to me because of my modesty. He admired the fact that I covered up all my assets rather than flaunting them - he noticed! We started courting, and now we have been married for 3 years (and have 2 toddlers!). So don’t despair - one day you will meet the right young man who will appreciate your modesty and beauty of character, and it WILL be worth the wait!!!
To all the girls who have been naysaying this entire project, may I put it this way? Imagine you like to smoke. Now imagine you have a friend who is trying desperately to quit smoking. Are you with me? Good. Now imagine that every time your friend and you get together, you light up a nice cigaratte and smoke it in front of him. His hands start shaking, and he gives in to the desire to smoke again. Whose fault was it? Was it his for not having the self-control to not smoke? Or was it yours for smoking in front of him even though you KNEW he was trying to quit and you KNEW the temptation would be too much for him? The answer is: both. You may feel that lust is only the man’s problem, but it isn’t. You can’t flaunt all your curves and still expect a man not to desire you. Why else are you wearing those clothes if not for the male attention? I am beginning to think that the reason you people are protesting the survey and the idea of women being partially responsible for men’s lust is that you care more about following the world and looking “hot” (or looking at those hot girls!) than you do about your brothers’ struggles. Please, don’t be selfish in this regard!! Don’t be the kind of girl that serious young men will pass over due to an immodest spirit and look. Esteem others better than yourself, as the Bible says!
January 30th, 2007 at 10:17 am
I wanted to clear up my last comment. When I said everyone, I didn’t really mean everyone who had commented (I haven’t had a chance to read all of the comments, but have read about 90% of them). I’m not saying that everyone of you are posting your comments too strongly, but quite a few are. I hope this made sense. If not, just know that I’m not judging any of you!
January 30th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
I used to think that my modesty (or lack there of) was not really important…I didn’t really have any idea of the power my body had. But, know I have realized how selfish it is to dress immodestly. If I don’t care that I am causing others to stumble, who am I looking out for? Michelle and only Michelle.
One thing that has really helped to keep me continually dressing modestly is the Bible. I have Matthew 18:6-7 posted on my mirror like this, “But if anyone causes one of these MEN who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the girl through whom they come!”
How powerful. If I want to be a woman of God, then I cannot intentionally cause someone else to sin.
January 30th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
Whether or not you are Christian, Muslim, or Jewish, men should not dictate what women wear. TO ALL THE WOMEN OUT THERE: WHO CARES WHAT THEY THINK??!!! Dress the way you feel best! I dress with discretion, but I tell myself what to wear each day. So without foul language, Dress like you want, and don’t listen to surveys, whether it is this one or one on another site. PS. Visit a decent website from women to women. Empower yourself by listening to your mother, grandmother, and sisters and friends! Western Religions are all the same.
They all make me want to vomit with their messed up view of how men and women should be. ][
January 30th, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Katie: I am a young woman and I care what they think! You may not and you don’t have to, but that might be just your opinion. I’m sure there are a few young women who agree with you, but I know the majority of women who comment on this website do care what guys think. Sorry if I sound harsh, I’m not trying to be….like you, I have opinions and we don’t have to agree. I’m in no way judging you. Please know that!
January 30th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
What is modesty? Modesty is not drawing unnecessary attention to ourselves- like we say people are being modest if they’re humble about their accomplishments. As women, we can draw attention to our bodies by wearing bright, eyecatching colors/patterns, wearing strange clothing, or exposing more than necessary. I don’t regard modesty as merely not showing cleavage. Most people would notice if you wore a floursack. Clashing combinations or flashy styles draw eyes. I’m not trying to say that women should only wear plain clothes, I’m trying to say that modesty is more than how much skin we show.
I dress modestly not so much because I have to, or am thinking about others, I dress modestly because it is practical, attractive, and I want to- it makes me feel pretty and confident about how I look. I am eager to see the results of the survey because I do care about others and want to know what young Godly men think. Modesty comes from the heart, but I find practical opinions useful to know how I can please God.
You are 101% right Hannah!:
“I, for one, believe that a girl can dress in modest, God-glorifying way as well as an attractive and even fashionable way!”-Hannah N.
About modesty for men: My desire is that young men would dress decently, not so much that they are provoking me to sexual desires. Why can’t they keep their shirts on and wear pants that don’t show their undergarments?
Notice that those concerned about male modesty are the girls…
“It is actually slightly amusing that here we have 1,500+ men humbly admitting their weakness and voicing their need for women’s help—and all at the women’s request, we might add—and we’re still accused of being male chauvinists.”
What if the men don’t want to know? We would be serving them, not the other way around. I support another survey, but it is something to think about.
“Dear sisters, thank you for having enough SPINE and COURAGE to dress differently from what fashion designers expect of you. I’m glad that there are some women out there who have their wits about them.” -San C.
In case you are wondering… I for one find many of the fashion designers’ styles unappealing. Who are they to decide how I should glorify God in my dress?
January 30th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
Katie, I would have sent this to you privately, but I didn’t see any way of doing that.
As Christians, the Bible is our standard. God is our Creator, and he created us to bring glory to Himself. As sinners saved by God’s grace, we must “bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5).” That is, we should evaluate everything that we do, think, say, and even wear, in terms of Him and His Word. Jesus said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).” The way we show that we are His children, redeemed by His shed blood, is by living in accordance with His holy Word.
Romans 12:2 says, “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind….” When we become Christians, by placing our trust in Christ on the cross, our entire way of thinking should change. No longer should we be living “me-centered” lives. God is now the Lord of our lives, instead of man (meaning “mankind”).
You see, true Christianity is not just a “Sunday religion.” The Bible speaks to every area of life, and we must take every area of our lives (our business, relationships, friends, books, all of our philosophies) into captivity to Christ. We must rethink everything in terms of God’s Word.
The Bible clearly tells women to dress modestly. “…[T]hat women adorn themselves in modest apparel (1 Timothy 2:9).” While views on exactly what is modest and what is not differ widely, this survey was an effort to give girls an idea of what many godly guys consider to be modest and pure. This survey was conducted so that caring, well-intentioned girls do not unwittingly become stumbling blocks or sources of temptation to the guys.
Katie, what is your standard? You advise, “Dress the way you feel best! … I tell myself what to wear each day.” Your standard is yourself, and the religion you are advocating is humanism. What stability is there in humanism? Everyone does what he or she wants (see Proverbs 12:15; 21:2), and believes they never have to answer to a Higher Authority. There is no absolute truth, and therefore no one (including you, given your philosophy) has any right to criticize anyone else’s view, no matter how strongly they dislike or disapprove of it.
With a spirit of love, I would like to point out some underlying contradictions in your comment. You set yourself up as the standard, at least for your own self (e.g. “I tell myself what to wear each day.”). You also advocate that each person view themselves as their own final authority (e.g. “Dress like you want.”). If each person sets up his or her own standards, and is his or her own final authority, what right do YOU have to tell ME what to do? (e.g. “[D]on’t listen to surveys….”) Who gave you the authority to set forth universal truths, which are non-existent given your philosophy? (e.g. “[M]en should not dictate what women wear.”)
If each person is his or her own final authority, who is to say that Western Religions have a “messed up view of how men and women should be”? That is just your personal view, and apparently only applies to yourself. From the way I understand your position, each person has a right to believe what he or she wants, without having to answer to a holy God, and without any fear of being wrong.
Because - under your philosophy - there is no absolute truth, and everyone is his or her own final authority, everyone is right (and cannot ever be wrong)! … even Alex and Brett Harris, Adolph Hitler, and President Bush.
God is our only source of stability. He sets forth absolute truth. He is our final authority.
Katie, I humbly ask that you reevaluate some of your core beliefs. I will be praying that the Holy Spirit will convict you of your false views, convince you of the futility of your philosophies, and bring you to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ as Lord of all.
I do not claim to have all the answers. I am not just setting forth my views on things and revealing my outlook on life. To do that would be to go against everything I have just written. Rather, I have tried my best to answer you according to the Scriptures, through which God has given us the answers.
Any power we have is through Him.
His servant,
Lauren
(If you like, you may contact me by leaving a respectful comment on my blog [comment moderation is enabled] by clicking on my name at the top of this post.)
January 31st, 2007 at 6:02 am
What does this post have to do with feminism? Feminism is about treating women and men as equals. I should hope that would include equal consideration and respect for each other.
I am a Christian, and I also happen to be a feminist. (After reading “feminism and biblical roles” I thought it might be worth adding that I do not feel that we should be genderless, either, nor do other feminists in my circle [whether they are Christian or not])
Do I seek to dress modestly? Yes.
I do not think I am responsible for the thoughts of men, and their issues relating to lust. I will not take that burden upon myself. However, I also do not want my brothers in Christ to stumble, but to encourage them in their pursuit of righteousness. For those reasons, I seek to demonstrate consideration when I dress. I do not have a list of “rules” to follow, but before going out, I look in the mirror to see what kind of image I present. I want my dress to project the image a thoughtful friend, a professional co-worker and a good and faithful wife. In so doing, I avoid clothes project the image of a woman seeking validation through sexual attention.
I am interested in what the polls say. It might have some interesting insight. I hope, as Alex and Brett mentioned, that men filling out this poll did not do so to tell women what to wear, nor scapegoat their problems with lust on us. Instead, I hope it can provide some insight as to the nature of the issues they struggle with, and how we as woman can encourage them in that area.
January 31st, 2007 at 7:51 am
Lauren- I would hate to dirty up your website with my radical feminist beliefs.
Here I’ll give it to you (using the New King James)
However, you have misunderstood me. I grew up in a Christian household. I know the bible through and through. Thanks for quoting it though. Also, please do read on in timothy which you so advocated.
Timothy 2:9-15 ahem:
9. in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in a modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing. 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11. Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.
So Lauren, I would be grateful if you didn’t quote a man who believed women shouldn’t be heard or seen. Second, I didn’t contradict myself, I simply stated that women should be self-empowered. This is not a bad thing. I do believe God wants me to be the best woman.
I know the bible, but I do not considerate an authoritative text over my life. Sorry hun.
Also, I DO NOT SEE the difference of a woman dressing modestly or scantily for men. The PURPOSE is the same!! To dress how a man wants you to dress.
I’m not trying to enrage Christians on this site, but I am trying to let you see my side. It is NOT a woman’s responsibility for men’s sin. I’m not advocating that women should dress scantily. I’m advocating that women start making their own decisions. Which some of you believe you are, however you are listening to what a man says and then making a decision based on that.
It isn’t any different.
My regards to you though Lauren, you are strong in what you believe, and so am I. So from one strong woman to other I look forward to your response.
PS> No more quoting the bible. I know it very well. Also, please do look into the life of Elizabeth Cady Stanton. She had an incredible version of the bible.
Regards, Katie
January 31st, 2007 at 8:24 am
Erin Koller said: #2 The modesty survey was not wholly the idea of Alex and Brett! It was actually the idea of one of the young ladies in the Rebelution forum
Yes, Erin, blame me!
I’d like to address this view that girls shouldn’t take advice from strangers on what to wear. The reason we girls want to dress modest is so that guys don’t lust after us. Any guy can do that, even strangers…so it follows that advice from guys we don’t know would be helpful too.
Thanks to you two, Alex and Brett, for sticking with this survey. I know it’s turned into something bigger and more controversial than you originally anticipated.
January 31st, 2007 at 10:12 am
Katie, you seem to be upset that women could be interested in men’s opinions on certain issues, but you find it perfectly OK to tell others what to do??? How utterly hypocritical of you (but very typical for feminists in general, since the whole movement is based on hypocrisy).
January 31st, 2007 at 10:41 am
Dear Din,
Please enlighten the forum on what you mean
Please tell me specifically how I was hypocritical because I must be blind to it. You know because I’m brainwashed by this “Feminism.”
Feel free to quote me also
Sincerely,
Katie
January 31st, 2007 at 10:49 am
As a married youth pastor who took the survey, I can say that this is a very helpful thing to go through. Some of my youth took it as well. The girls and guys in my group have begun a discussion on all of these issues. Here is what I keep hearing, “I’m not sure about that, but it sure has caused me to think about something I have never thought about.” Whatever “side” of this issue you are on, surely you agree that it is better to think about it and seek biblical convictions than to NOT think about it at all. Keep up the good work!
January 31st, 2007 at 11:45 am
Din: I appreciate your conviction, but would encourage you to avoid allowing anger to creep into your comments or disrespect for Katie. We are not required to agree with Katie’s beliefs, but we must still respect her as a person. Especially when accusing someone of something as serious as hypocrisy it is necessary to explain yourself graciously and thoroughly.
Katie: I believe that what Din means to say is that you operate under a double-standard. You communicate the impression that women who are influenced by the advice or concerns of men are weak, however, any woman who is influenced by your advice and concerns would be empowered. In other words, you are not against indoctrination, provided that indoctrination is your own.
This double-standard hinders discussion because, while you don’t want to hear from the Bible (which is what we believe), you still want us to see your side and to consider your motivations for believing the way you do. And though you disagree with women receiving input from 1,500 men who care for and respect them, you still want both men and women to receive your input, which is often delivered without much care or respect.
I don’t believe you are a hypocrite. I think you just strongly disagree and haven’t learned (or don’t care enough) to communicate that disagreement in a considerate manner. I hope that in any further discussion the civility of the conversation will be raised. We discourage disrespect coming from anyone, regardless of their position. This is why I have addressed both you and Din.
Thank you both for listening.
January 31st, 2007 at 1:47 pm
Katie,
I agree that women should make decisions. But so long as the men aren’t ordering the women around, what is wrong with seeking their advice? No advice absolutely has to be taken.
Also, it’s not always so simple as “to dress how a man wants you to dress.” Some people do that. However, there are others who dress a certain way because they want to, whether or no men like it. I know there are people on both ends of the modesty spectrum who do that. (I can think of some revealing but perfectly ghastly Hollywood gowns.)
In a way, we exercise control over men’s fashions by being repulsed by some of their outfits and approving of others. Very few men would wear trousers, a vest, a cravat, and a top hat to attract a girl nowadays. They exercise control over our fashions exactly the same way (when was the last time you wore a Victorian-era swimming costume?). No matter what, if something’s fashionable, it got that way because someone thought it looked good. In the case of women’s fashion, more likely than not the approval was given by men. Extremely tight jeans did not become popular because women found them comfortable. Few other women really care how shapely your legs are. Men do. No one would feel attractive in them if men didn’t find them attractive.
January 31st, 2007 at 1:59 pm
Katie,
Thank you for your post, it has helped me to see exactly how feminest view this issue and for that I am truley grateful.
The reason we quote the bible is because it is everything that we are. To ask a Christian not to quote the bible is like asking an evelutionist not to quote Charles Darwin. It’s almost an un thinkable thing. I respect your views and I accept your quotes form feminest women so pleas accept my verses from my religion.
As you said you were brought up in a Christian household. Do you feel that this religion has betrayed you? I must assume that you do because you have said the bible is “just the words of a man”. I do not question your knowlage of the bible but I post verses to show you where I get these ideas form. As you must know Christians believe that the Bible is the holy inspired word of God and because of this we do not believe these are words of just a man. If you would like to talk about the validity of the bible please email me (proudpinkfreak@yahoo.com).
Moving along. If your friend went on a diet wouldn’t you want to help her? Because your friend is on a diet you would try and present her with low calorie food and keep away sweets so that she would be able to prevail in this diet. Well because our brothers in Christ should not lust (As you have said it is a sin yet you don’t believe the bible is true, I find that sort of ironic.) we as their sisters in Christ would like to help them.(Hebrews 13:4) If we dress in a less provactitive way then we will be able to encourage them on their “diet” ( I hate reffering to woman as food but it was a good analogy. ;D).
Modesty also has other added bonus. Guys will be able to take you more seriously because instead of thinking about you without clothes they can pay attention to your interior beauty and get to know you for who you are. Is that not what feminesim promots? Viewing woman as more then just sex objects? You should be able to understand and agree with this then.
Let me know what you think.
in Him,
Elizabeth
P.S. If it’s okay to ask, what is your religion?
January 31st, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Katie - I hope you don’t feel like we’re ganging up on you, hun! We aren’t. But your posts have certainly caught our attention! I for one have been thinking about them all day. I just wanted to say something. Modesty in dress is not about being a slave to men and their desires. Rather, it is about freedom. Let me explain. Lust is a hard, rough, ugly, selfish thing, isn’t it? I don’t want to be lusted after (think of a group of men catcalling a stripper…not very nice). So I dress modestly. As a result, I am free from crude comments, wandering eyes, curious hands, leering expressions, and a bad reputation. I can walk down the street and hold my head high with the knowledge that any man I find looking at me will be looking at my face (I make eye contact with men rather than finding their eyes on me below the neck). I get doors held open for me, and people treat me with respect. I am free from being known as that nice ____ or that great pair of _____ .People are free to know me for who I am. As a married woman, I am free from unwanted male attention, and any that I do receive is courteous rather than crude. In summer, I am nice and cool and comfortable because my clothes are long enough to shade my skin and loose enough to let the breeze cool me down. I am free, Katie! I can’t even tell you how wonderful it is. Truly, the benefits of modesty far outweigh the inconvenience of trying to find proper clothes. And knowing that my Christian brothers don’t have to avert their eyes and walk away when they see me coming is precious too because I know that it is a blessing for them. I cover up because I want to honour my Saviour and reflect well on Him; because I care deeply about my fellow Christians; and because I don’t want to be an object of lust. We are worth more than that! Besides that, once we are born again in Christ our bodies belong to HIm and we must do with them as He commands us. And He has commanded us to be modest. That is really the bottom line, isn’t it?
Anyways, thanks for reading Katie, and I hope you will post again soon. If you would like to read an article that beautifully describes God’s views on women as He puts it forth in the Bible, please check out this link: http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=articles&aid=230837 It is wonderful and true. Please read it with an open mind - I am afraid that you have been lied to by a well-meaning feminist when it comes to the Biblical view of women. Thanks!
January 31st, 2007 at 6:03 pm
About the picture for the modesty survey. She looks as though she is a bride, any married man who is reading this didn’t YOUR wife look somewhat like that as you saw her walking down the aisle? I am not married or an expert by any means but that is my thoughts on it.
February 5th, 2007 at 11:07 am
Valerie (and everybody else), I have to disagree with the assumption that modest dress makes men treat you better. Over the past 10 years, I have made the transition from t-shirt and jeans tomboy to business professional (slacks and sweaters)– with a long-skirted hippie phase in the middle– and nothing about my dress seems to change men’s attitudes toward me. I am not particularly attractive, but have been catcalled, stared at, and outright propositioned on a regular basis since I was twelve–prepubescent, in my case. I was taught ‘modesty’ growing up as the idea that you should hide your body, and so I understood the attention I received as somehow my own fault– but the only thing I was doing to attract attention was being female and walking down the street! Because these men were (evidently) lusting after me while I was dressed modestly, there was nothing to blame but the very existence of my body, and it doesn’t take a lot of brains for a young Calvinist to get the message that the body is evil. There is this pervasive idea in society that a woman or girl exists to be looked at; for non-Christians it manifests itself in the catcalling and disrespectful treatment of women, for Christians it seems to show up as a concern for “modesty”. Teaching girls (usually not directly, I understand, but indirect messages are just as powerful) that their bodies are sinful is extremely damaging. Teaching boys that they are ‘hardwired’ to respond in a sexual way to girls’ bodies is just as damaging– give boys a little bit of credit, OK?
The solution, as I understand it, is amazingly simple. Stop seeing women and girls as objects, and start seeing them as full people. As much as I’m sure that some modesty proponents would protest otherwise, ‘modesty’ doesn’t do it– at least not the kind espoused in this survey, which essentially reduces women to body parts. Men need to start taking some responsibility, and women need to pass it on. The fact that a co-worker was staring at my chest this morning while he talked to me is HIS responsibility, not a result of the fact that my tank top contrasts with the sweater I’m wearing over it. Because, suprise, he does the exact same thing every time I talk to him, regardless of what I’m wearing. The guy who propositioned me on my way to work today? His problem. (For the record, the local high is -2 Farenheit today, I was dressed accordingly). In the summer, when I run in shorts and tank tops and men whistle, nobody’s making them look, and I don’t see their choosing to look as a reason why I should be hotter than I have to be while excersizing.
Men, you have agency. Just don’t look. If you choose to look, that is your choice, not a judgement on the clothing of the woman you are staring at. Sure, it’s hard not to look (you would not believe the abs on some of the guys at my local gym), but if manhood is supposed to be about ‘doing hard things’, not looking should be right up your alley. Seeing women as full human beings should help with this too– if you look at every woman who walks by you as a person with her own rights, desires, and moral agency, it’s a lot harder to see her as a body part that needs to be covered up.
February 6th, 2007 at 7:09 pm
I am sorry to see that are a number of Rebelution members who honestly do not care if a girl dresses or acts in a way that puts her at risk for being lusted after. But at the same time I was actually sort of amazed at the number of Christian bloggers who actually cared. But, should not us guys dress and behave modestly,too?
Sincerely,
D.F.
February 14th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Great job, guys. I couldn’t agree with you more.
March 19th, 2007 at 3:06 am
Well, the other advantage to dressing modestly (or, as it might otherwise be called, professionally) is to ace that competitive job interview and tear down the low expectations that our society has for women intellectually.
March 19th, 2007 at 5:17 am
Katrina: “For feminists out there… Do you really think that dressing in an overtly sexual manner helps your cause for femminism? It only makes the rest of the world think of you as a sex object. You’ll notice that the powerful women in the world, women who are respected and have made a difference all dress modestly and professionally. It’s generally not considered “professional” to wear skin tight suits, fishnet stockings, and mini-skirts! If you really want to make a cause for femminism, then dress like you can make a difference in the world! Dressing like Britney Spears doesn’t say “I’m powerful”. It says “I’m an immature girl”.”
In a word, no, feminists do not regard dressing like Britney Spears or any other pop culture icons as feminist. Like you, we think that is ridiculous and would much rather be wearing a suit that reflects our professional position earned by higher education (to which the feminist movement gave us access) and hard work.
However, I also found it interesting that you brought this up, because most of what I’ve read from Christians in America (yes, I know that Christianity in America is not one unified set of beliefs) is not very encouraging to women having careers, especially if they are unwilling to leave those careers after marriage. The men are automatically assumed to be the breadwinners, and the women, the homemakers, and more value is explicitly or implicitly attached to the male identity, and certain people get very upset when this gender hierarchy is disrupted and cite numerous parts of the Bible that support it. Women who want to wear suits that say “I’m powerful” are not much more compatible with their Christian role than women who wear clothes that say “I’m hot” (at least, without ignoring significant amounts of Scripture).
Which is only a footnote to the reasons I disagree with the Bible.
I don’t dress like an airhead (in fact, if you met me, you’d probably see that I dress more seriously than most 18-year-olds, Christian or not), and am part of a minority of college students who don’t drink, smoke, or do drugs. I work hard at a college with a difficult curriculum. So in no way is my non-belief a post-hoc rationalization of low lifestyle standards.
But I’ll take the suit and follow the way of the most powerful and respected women in the world, who rebelled against the assumption, upheld by Christian tradition, that women’s primary role should be having kids. What do you think? What is the perspective of Christian feminism - can women choose not to have children, and can they have more prestigious jobs than their husbands, or does Christian feminism still presume a domestic role for women but modify the emotional dynamics of the relationship?