Comments on: Feminism And The Modesty Survey http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/ reb•e•lu•tion (reb’el lu shen) n. a teenage rebellion against the low expectations of an ungodly culture. Fri, 21 Nov 2008 15:08:41 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.3 by: r http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-55305 Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:17:44 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-55305 Katrina: "For feminists out there… Do you really think that dressing in an overtly sexual manner helps your cause for femminism? It only makes the rest of the world think of you as a sex object. You’ll notice that the powerful women in the world, women who are respected and have made a difference all dress modestly and professionally. It’s generally not considered “professional” to wear skin tight suits, fishnet stockings, and mini-skirts! If you really want to make a cause for femminism, then dress like you can make a difference in the world! Dressing like Britney Spears doesn’t say “I’m powerful”. It says “I’m an immature girl”." In a word, no, feminists do not regard dressing like Britney Spears or any other pop culture icons as feminist. Like you, we think that is ridiculous and would much rather be wearing a suit that reflects our professional position earned by higher education (to which the feminist movement gave us access) and hard work. However, I also found it interesting that you brought this up, because most of what I've read from Christians in America (yes, I know that Christianity in America is not one unified set of beliefs) is not very encouraging to women having careers, especially if they are unwilling to leave those careers after marriage. The men are automatically assumed to be the breadwinners, and the women, the homemakers, and more value is explicitly or implicitly attached to the male identity, and certain people get very upset when this gender hierarchy is disrupted and cite numerous parts of the Bible that support it. Women who want to wear suits that say "I'm powerful" are not much more compatible with their Christian role than women who wear clothes that say "I'm hot" (at least, without ignoring significant amounts of Scripture). Which is only a footnote to the reasons I disagree with the Bible. I don't dress like an airhead (in fact, if you met me, you'd probably see that I dress more seriously than most 18-year-olds, Christian or not), and am part of a minority of college students who don't drink, smoke, or do drugs. I work hard at a college with a difficult curriculum. So in no way is my non-belief a post-hoc rationalization of low lifestyle standards. But I'll take the suit and follow the way of the most powerful and respected women in the world, who rebelled against the assumption, upheld by Christian tradition, that women's primary role should be having kids. What do you think? What is the perspective of Christian feminism - can women choose not to have children, and can they have more prestigious jobs than their husbands, or does Christian feminism still presume a domestic role for women but modify the emotional dynamics of the relationship? Katrina: “For feminists out there… Do you really think that dressing in an overtly sexual manner helps your cause for femminism? It only makes the rest of the world think of you as a sex object. You’ll notice that the powerful women in the world, women who are respected and have made a difference all dress modestly and professionally. It’s generally not considered “professional” to wear skin tight suits, fishnet stockings, and mini-skirts! If you really want to make a cause for femminism, then dress like you can make a difference in the world! Dressing like Britney Spears doesn’t say “I’m powerful”. It says “I’m an immature girl”.”

In a word, no, feminists do not regard dressing like Britney Spears or any other pop culture icons as feminist. Like you, we think that is ridiculous and would much rather be wearing a suit that reflects our professional position earned by higher education (to which the feminist movement gave us access) and hard work.

However, I also found it interesting that you brought this up, because most of what I’ve read from Christians in America (yes, I know that Christianity in America is not one unified set of beliefs) is not very encouraging to women having careers, especially if they are unwilling to leave those careers after marriage. The men are automatically assumed to be the breadwinners, and the women, the homemakers, and more value is explicitly or implicitly attached to the male identity, and certain people get very upset when this gender hierarchy is disrupted and cite numerous parts of the Bible that support it. Women who want to wear suits that say “I’m powerful” are not much more compatible with their Christian role than women who wear clothes that say “I’m hot” (at least, without ignoring significant amounts of Scripture).

Which is only a footnote to the reasons I disagree with the Bible.

I don’t dress like an airhead (in fact, if you met me, you’d probably see that I dress more seriously than most 18-year-olds, Christian or not), and am part of a minority of college students who don’t drink, smoke, or do drugs. I work hard at a college with a difficult curriculum. So in no way is my non-belief a post-hoc rationalization of low lifestyle standards.

But I’ll take the suit and follow the way of the most powerful and respected women in the world, who rebelled against the assumption, upheld by Christian tradition, that women’s primary role should be having kids. What do you think? What is the perspective of Christian feminism - can women choose not to have children, and can they have more prestigious jobs than their husbands, or does Christian feminism still presume a domestic role for women but modify the emotional dynamics of the relationship?

]]> by: r http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-55290 Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:06:20 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-55290 Well, the other advantage to dressing modestly (or, as it might otherwise be called, professionally) is to ace that competitive job interview and tear down the low expectations that our society has for women intellectually. Well, the other advantage to dressing modestly (or, as it might otherwise be called, professionally) is to ace that competitive job interview and tear down the low expectations that our society has for women intellectually.

]]> by: Shaun http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-44277 Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:11:16 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-44277 Great job, guys. I couldn't agree with you more. Great job, guys. I couldn’t agree with you more.

]]> by: Daniel F. http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-41460 Wed, 07 Feb 2007 03:09:07 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-41460 I am sorry to see that are a number of Rebelution members who honestly do not care if a girl dresses or acts in a way that puts her at risk for being lusted after. But at the same time I was actually sort of amazed at the number of Christian bloggers who actually cared. But, should not us guys dress and behave modestly,too? Sincerely, D.F. I am sorry to see that are a number of Rebelution members who honestly do not care if a girl dresses or acts in a way that puts her at risk for being lusted after. But at the same time I was actually sort of amazed at the number of Christian bloggers who actually cared. But, should not us guys dress and behave modestly,too?

Sincerely,

D.F.

]]> by: Another Kati http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-40904 Mon, 05 Feb 2007 19:07:24 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-40904 Valerie (and everybody else), I have to disagree with the assumption that modest dress makes men treat you better. Over the past 10 years, I have made the transition from t-shirt and jeans tomboy to business professional (slacks and sweaters)-- with a long-skirted hippie phase in the middle-- and nothing about my dress seems to change men's attitudes toward me. I am not particularly attractive, but have been catcalled, stared at, and outright propositioned on a regular basis since I was twelve--prepubescent, in my case. I was taught 'modesty' growing up as the idea that you should hide your body, and so I understood the attention I received as somehow my own fault-- but the only thing I was doing to attract attention was being female and walking down the street! Because these men were (evidently) lusting after me while I was dressed modestly, there was nothing to blame but the very existence of my body, and it doesn't take a lot of brains for a young Calvinist to get the message that the body is evil. There is this pervasive idea in society that a woman or girl exists to be looked at; for non-Christians it manifests itself in the catcalling and disrespectful treatment of women, for Christians it seems to show up as a concern for "modesty". Teaching girls (usually not directly, I understand, but indirect messages are just as powerful) that their bodies are sinful is extremely damaging. Teaching boys that they are 'hardwired' to respond in a sexual way to girls' bodies is just as damaging-- give boys a little bit of credit, OK? The solution, as I understand it, is amazingly simple. Stop seeing women and girls as objects, and start seeing them as full people. As much as I'm sure that some modesty proponents would protest otherwise, 'modesty' doesn't do it-- at least not the kind espoused in this survey, which essentially reduces women to body parts. Men need to start taking some responsibility, and women need to pass it on. The fact that a co-worker was staring at my chest this morning while he talked to me is HIS responsibility, not a result of the fact that my tank top contrasts with the sweater I'm wearing over it. Because, suprise, he does the exact same thing every time I talk to him, regardless of what I'm wearing. The guy who propositioned me on my way to work today? His problem. (For the record, the local high is -2 Farenheit today, I was dressed accordingly). In the summer, when I run in shorts and tank tops and men whistle, nobody's making them look, and I don't see their choosing to look as a reason why I should be hotter than I have to be while excersizing. Men, you have agency. Just don't look. If you choose to look, that is your choice, not a judgement on the clothing of the woman you are staring at. Sure, it's hard not to look (you would not believe the abs on some of the guys at my local gym), but if manhood is supposed to be about 'doing hard things', not looking should be right up your alley. Seeing women as full human beings should help with this too-- if you look at every woman who walks by you as a person with her own rights, desires, and moral agency, it's a lot harder to see her as a body part that needs to be covered up. Valerie (and everybody else), I have to disagree with the assumption that modest dress makes men treat you better. Over the past 10 years, I have made the transition from t-shirt and jeans tomboy to business professional (slacks and sweaters)– with a long-skirted hippie phase in the middle– and nothing about my dress seems to change men’s attitudes toward me. I am not particularly attractive, but have been catcalled, stared at, and outright propositioned on a regular basis since I was twelve–prepubescent, in my case. I was taught ‘modesty’ growing up as the idea that you should hide your body, and so I understood the attention I received as somehow my own fault– but the only thing I was doing to attract attention was being female and walking down the street! Because these men were (evidently) lusting after me while I was dressed modestly, there was nothing to blame but the very existence of my body, and it doesn’t take a lot of brains for a young Calvinist to get the message that the body is evil. There is this pervasive idea in society that a woman or girl exists to be looked at; for non-Christians it manifests itself in the catcalling and disrespectful treatment of women, for Christians it seems to show up as a concern for “modesty”. Teaching girls (usually not directly, I understand, but indirect messages are just as powerful) that their bodies are sinful is extremely damaging. Teaching boys that they are ‘hardwired’ to respond in a sexual way to girls’ bodies is just as damaging– give boys a little bit of credit, OK?

The solution, as I understand it, is amazingly simple. Stop seeing women and girls as objects, and start seeing them as full people. As much as I’m sure that some modesty proponents would protest otherwise, ‘modesty’ doesn’t do it– at least not the kind espoused in this survey, which essentially reduces women to body parts. Men need to start taking some responsibility, and women need to pass it on. The fact that a co-worker was staring at my chest this morning while he talked to me is HIS responsibility, not a result of the fact that my tank top contrasts with the sweater I’m wearing over it. Because, suprise, he does the exact same thing every time I talk to him, regardless of what I’m wearing. The guy who propositioned me on my way to work today? His problem. (For the record, the local high is -2 Farenheit today, I was dressed accordingly). In the summer, when I run in shorts and tank tops and men whistle, nobody’s making them look, and I don’t see their choosing to look as a reason why I should be hotter than I have to be while excersizing.

Men, you have agency. Just don’t look. If you choose to look, that is your choice, not a judgement on the clothing of the woman you are staring at. Sure, it’s hard not to look (you would not believe the abs on some of the guys at my local gym), but if manhood is supposed to be about ‘doing hard things’, not looking should be right up your alley. Seeing women as full human beings should help with this too– if you look at every woman who walks by you as a person with her own rights, desires, and moral agency, it’s a lot harder to see her as a body part that needs to be covered up.

]]> by: AJM http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-39402 Thu, 01 Feb 2007 02:03:59 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-39402 About the picture for the modesty survey. She looks as though she is a bride, any married man who is reading this didn't YOUR wife look somewhat like that as you saw her walking down the aisle? I am not married or an expert by any means but that is my thoughts on it. About the picture for the modesty survey. She looks as though she is a bride, any married man who is reading this didn’t YOUR wife look somewhat like that as you saw her walking down the aisle? I am not married or an expert by any means but that is my thoughts on it.

]]> by: Valerie http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-39395 Thu, 01 Feb 2007 01:30:14 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-39395 Katie - I hope you don't feel like we're ganging up on you, hun! We aren't. But your posts have certainly caught our attention! I for one have been thinking about them all day. I just wanted to say something. Modesty in dress is not about being a slave to men and their desires. Rather, it is about freedom. Let me explain. Lust is a hard, rough, ugly, selfish thing, isn't it? I don't want to be lusted after (think of a group of men catcalling a stripper...not very nice). So I dress modestly. As a result, I am free from crude comments, wandering eyes, curious hands, leering expressions, and a bad reputation. I can walk down the street and hold my head high with the knowledge that any man I find looking at me will be looking at my face (I make eye contact with men rather than finding their eyes on me below the neck). I get doors held open for me, and people treat me with respect. I am free from being known as that nice ____ or that great pair of _____ .People are free to know me for who I am. As a married woman, I am free from unwanted male attention, and any that I do receive is courteous rather than crude. In summer, I am nice and cool and comfortable because my clothes are long enough to shade my skin and loose enough to let the breeze cool me down. I am free, Katie! I can't even tell you how wonderful it is. Truly, the benefits of modesty far outweigh the inconvenience of trying to find proper clothes. And knowing that my Christian brothers don't have to avert their eyes and walk away when they see me coming is precious too because I know that it is a blessing for them. I cover up because I want to honour my Saviour and reflect well on Him; because I care deeply about my fellow Christians; and because I don't want to be an object of lust. We are worth more than that! Besides that, once we are born again in Christ our bodies belong to HIm and we must do with them as He commands us. And He has commanded us to be modest. That is really the bottom line, isn't it? Anyways, thanks for reading Katie, and I hope you will post again soon. If you would like to read an article that beautifully describes God's views on women as He puts it forth in the Bible, please check out this link: http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=articles&aid=230837 It is wonderful and true. Please read it with an open mind - I am afraid that you have been lied to by a well-meaning feminist when it comes to the Biblical view of women. Thanks! Katie - I hope you don’t feel like we’re ganging up on you, hun! We aren’t. But your posts have certainly caught our attention! I for one have been thinking about them all day. I just wanted to say something. Modesty in dress is not about being a slave to men and their desires. Rather, it is about freedom. Let me explain. Lust is a hard, rough, ugly, selfish thing, isn’t it? I don’t want to be lusted after (think of a group of men catcalling a stripper…not very nice). So I dress modestly. As a result, I am free from crude comments, wandering eyes, curious hands, leering expressions, and a bad reputation. I can walk down the street and hold my head high with the knowledge that any man I find looking at me will be looking at my face (I make eye contact with men rather than finding their eyes on me below the neck). I get doors held open for me, and people treat me with respect. I am free from being known as that nice ____ or that great pair of _____ .People are free to know me for who I am. As a married woman, I am free from unwanted male attention, and any that I do receive is courteous rather than crude. In summer, I am nice and cool and comfortable because my clothes are long enough to shade my skin and loose enough to let the breeze cool me down. I am free, Katie! I can’t even tell you how wonderful it is. Truly, the benefits of modesty far outweigh the inconvenience of trying to find proper clothes. And knowing that my Christian brothers don’t have to avert their eyes and walk away when they see me coming is precious too because I know that it is a blessing for them. I cover up because I want to honour my Saviour and reflect well on Him; because I care deeply about my fellow Christians; and because I don’t want to be an object of lust. We are worth more than that! Besides that, once we are born again in Christ our bodies belong to HIm and we must do with them as He commands us. And He has commanded us to be modest. That is really the bottom line, isn’t it?

Anyways, thanks for reading Katie, and I hope you will post again soon. If you would like to read an article that beautifully describes God’s views on women as He puts it forth in the Bible, please check out this link: http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=articles&aid=230837 It is wonderful and true. Please read it with an open mind - I am afraid that you have been lied to by a well-meaning feminist when it comes to the Biblical view of women. Thanks!

]]> by: Elizabeth Cuneo http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-39372 Wed, 31 Jan 2007 21:59:40 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-39372 Katie, Thank you for your post, it has helped me to see exactly how feminest view this issue and for that I am truley grateful. The reason we quote the bible is because it is everything that we are. To ask a Christian not to quote the bible is like asking an evelutionist not to quote Charles Darwin. It's almost an un thinkable thing. I respect your views and I accept your quotes form feminest women so pleas accept my verses from my religion. As you said you were brought up in a Christian household. Do you feel that this religion has betrayed you? I must assume that you do because you have said the bible is "just the words of a man". I do not question your knowlage of the bible but I post verses to show you where I get these ideas form. As you must know Christians believe that the Bible is the holy inspired word of God and because of this we do not believe these are words of just a man. If you would like to talk about the validity of the bible please email me (proudpinkfreak@yahoo.com). Moving along. If your friend went on a diet wouldn't you want to help her? Because your friend is on a diet you would try and present her with low calorie food and keep away sweets so that she would be able to prevail in this diet. Well because our brothers in Christ should not lust (As you have said it is a sin yet you don't believe the bible is true, I find that sort of ironic.) we as their sisters in Christ would like to help them.(Hebrews 13:4) If we dress in a less provactitive way then we will be able to encourage them on their "diet" ( I hate reffering to woman as food but it was a good analogy. ;D). Modesty also has other added bonus. Guys will be able to take you more seriously because instead of thinking about you without clothes they can pay attention to your interior beauty and get to know you for who you are. Is that not what feminesim promots? Viewing woman as more then just sex objects? You should be able to understand and agree with this then. Let me know what you think. in Him, Elizabeth P.S. If it's okay to ask, what is your religion? Katie,
Thank you for your post, it has helped me to see exactly how feminest view this issue and for that I am truley grateful.

The reason we quote the bible is because it is everything that we are. To ask a Christian not to quote the bible is like asking an evelutionist not to quote Charles Darwin. It’s almost an un thinkable thing. I respect your views and I accept your quotes form feminest women so pleas accept my verses from my religion.

As you said you were brought up in a Christian household. Do you feel that this religion has betrayed you? I must assume that you do because you have said the bible is “just the words of a man”. I do not question your knowlage of the bible but I post verses to show you where I get these ideas form. As you must know Christians believe that the Bible is the holy inspired word of God and because of this we do not believe these are words of just a man. If you would like to talk about the validity of the bible please email me (proudpinkfreak@yahoo.com).

Moving along. If your friend went on a diet wouldn’t you want to help her? Because your friend is on a diet you would try and present her with low calorie food and keep away sweets so that she would be able to prevail in this diet. Well because our brothers in Christ should not lust (As you have said it is a sin yet you don’t believe the bible is true, I find that sort of ironic.) we as their sisters in Christ would like to help them.(Hebrews 13:4) If we dress in a less provactitive way then we will be able to encourage them on their “diet” ( I hate reffering to woman as food but it was a good analogy. ;D).

Modesty also has other added bonus. Guys will be able to take you more seriously because instead of thinking about you without clothes they can pay attention to your interior beauty and get to know you for who you are. Is that not what feminesim promots? Viewing woman as more then just sex objects? You should be able to understand and agree with this then.

Let me know what you think.

in Him,
Elizabeth

P.S. If it’s okay to ask, what is your religion?

]]> by: Anna http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-39371 Wed, 31 Jan 2007 21:47:40 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-39371 Katie, I agree that women should make decisions. But so long as the men aren't ordering the women around, what is wrong with seeking their advice? No advice absolutely has to be taken. Also, it's not always so simple as "to dress how a man wants you to dress." Some people do that. However, there are others who dress a certain way because they want to, whether or no men like it. I know there are people on both ends of the modesty spectrum who do that. (I can think of some revealing but perfectly ghastly Hollywood gowns.) In a way, we exercise control over men's fashions by being repulsed by some of their outfits and approving of others. Very few men would wear trousers, a vest, a cravat, and a top hat to attract a girl nowadays. They exercise control over our fashions exactly the same way (when was the last time you wore a Victorian-era swimming costume?). No matter what, if something's fashionable, it got that way because someone thought it looked good. In the case of women's fashion, more likely than not the approval was given by men. Extremely tight jeans did not become popular because women found them comfortable. Few other women really care how shapely your legs are. Men do. No one would feel attractive in them if men didn't find them attractive. Katie,
I agree that women should make decisions. But so long as the men aren’t ordering the women around, what is wrong with seeking their advice? No advice absolutely has to be taken.
Also, it’s not always so simple as “to dress how a man wants you to dress.” Some people do that. However, there are others who dress a certain way because they want to, whether or no men like it. I know there are people on both ends of the modesty spectrum who do that. (I can think of some revealing but perfectly ghastly Hollywood gowns.)
In a way, we exercise control over men’s fashions by being repulsed by some of their outfits and approving of others. Very few men would wear trousers, a vest, a cravat, and a top hat to attract a girl nowadays. They exercise control over our fashions exactly the same way (when was the last time you wore a Victorian-era swimming costume?). No matter what, if something’s fashionable, it got that way because someone thought it looked good. In the case of women’s fashion, more likely than not the approval was given by men. Extremely tight jeans did not become popular because women found them comfortable. Few other women really care how shapely your legs are. Men do. No one would feel attractive in them if men didn’t find them attractive.

]]> by: Brett Harris http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-39334 Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:45:16 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/01/feminism-and-the-modesty-survey/#comment-39334 <b>Din:</b> I appreciate your conviction, but would encourage you to avoid allowing anger to creep into your comments or disrespect for Katie. We are not required to agree with Katie's beliefs, but we must still respect her as a person. Especially when accusing someone of something as serious as hypocrisy it is necessary to explain yourself graciously and thoroughly. <b>Katie:</b> I believe that what Din means to say is that you operate under a double-standard. You communicate the impression that women who are influenced by the advice or concerns of men are weak, however, any woman who is influenced by your advice and concerns would be empowered. In other words, you are not against indoctrination, provided that indoctrination is your own. This double-standard hinders discussion because, while you don't want to hear from the Bible (which is what we believe), you still want us to see your side and to consider your motivations for believing the way you do. And though you disagree with women receiving input from 1,500 men who care for and respect them, you still want both men and women to receive your input, which is often delivered without much care or respect. I don't believe you are a hypocrite. I think you just strongly disagree and haven't learned (or don't care enough) to communicate that disagreement in a considerate manner. I hope that in any further discussion the civility of the conversation will be raised. We discourage disrespect coming from anyone, regardless of their position. This is why I have addressed both you and Din. Thank you both for listening. :) Din: I appreciate your conviction, but would encourage you to avoid allowing anger to creep into your comments or disrespect for Katie. We are not required to agree with Katie’s beliefs, but we must still respect her as a person. Especially when accusing someone of something as serious as hypocrisy it is necessary to explain yourself graciously and thoroughly.

Katie: I believe that what Din means to say is that you operate under a double-standard. You communicate the impression that women who are influenced by the advice or concerns of men are weak, however, any woman who is influenced by your advice and concerns would be empowered. In other words, you are not against indoctrination, provided that indoctrination is your own.

This double-standard hinders discussion because, while you don’t want to hear from the Bible (which is what we believe), you still want us to see your side and to consider your motivations for believing the way you do. And though you disagree with women receiving input from 1,500 men who care for and respect them, you still want both men and women to receive your input, which is often delivered without much care or respect.

I don’t believe you are a hypocrite. I think you just strongly disagree and haven’t learned (or don’t care enough) to communicate that disagreement in a considerate manner. I hope that in any further discussion the civility of the conversation will be raised. We discourage disrespect coming from anyone, regardless of their position. This is why I have addressed both you and Din.

Thank you both for listening. :)

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