Comments on: Taking Heat for The Modesty Survey http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/ reb•e•lu•tion (reb’el lu shen) n. a teenage rebellion against the low expectations of an ungodly culture. Fri, 9 Jan 2009 22:31:56 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.3 by: David http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-369869 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:55:13 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-369869 I realize I'm over a year late to this party but the comment has to be made. I read through the survey and thought about the results and questions as well all the responses and comments. While I commend you on undertaking the project I can certainly understand the criticism. Two things that stand out to me as problematic for this survey which you might consider if you are to do another. First is the cultural slippery slope of modesty. What is modest today was obscene yesterday or completely prudish in another culture. Second, (and this is a personal pet peeve) I am deeply frustrated with the term "Stumbling Block" which even Joshua used out of context in his response. This may well be the most mis-interpreted passage in the Bible. I am only a stumbling block when I engage in liberty and somehow influence another to engage in that same action which is not an area of liberty, rather a violation of conscience for that person. A woman is not a 'stumbling block' by being immodest unless it somehow directly influences me to be immodest as well. Her accidently revealing cleavage which causes me to lust is entirely a heart issue for me and it is unfair and unbiblical to insinuate she is 'causing a weaker brother to sin.' Ultimately this idea robs men of free will and God of sovereignty. Matt Chandler often says its not like buying a six pack of beer at the supermarket is going to cause a complete stranger to scream "I knew there was no God" and therefore never get saved. And if it does, what does that say about God? His power to call men to repentance is limited by my buying a six pack or a girl showing a little skin? I realize I’m over a year late to this party but the comment has to be made. I read through the survey and thought about the results and questions as well all the responses and comments.

While I commend you on undertaking the project I can certainly understand the criticism. Two things that stand out to me as problematic for this survey which you might consider if you are to do another. First is the cultural slippery slope of modesty. What is modest today was obscene yesterday or completely prudish in another culture.

Second, (and this is a personal pet peeve) I am deeply frustrated with the term “Stumbling Block” which even Joshua used out of context in his response. This may well be the most mis-interpreted passage in the Bible. I am only a stumbling block when I engage in liberty and somehow influence another to engage in that same action which is not an area of liberty, rather a violation of conscience for that person.

A woman is not a ’stumbling block’ by being immodest unless it somehow directly influences me to be immodest as well. Her accidently revealing cleavage which causes me to lust is entirely a heart issue for me and it is unfair and unbiblical to insinuate she is ‘causing a weaker brother to sin.’

Ultimately this idea robs men of free will and God of sovereignty. Matt Chandler often says its not like buying a six pack of beer at the supermarket is going to cause a complete stranger to scream “I knew there was no God” and therefore never get saved. And if it does, what does that say about God? His power to call men to repentance is limited by my buying a six pack or a girl showing a little skin?

]]> by: cipro hematology http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-367838 Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:53:55 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-367838 vbpslod vbpslod

]]> by: Peggy Strevel http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-352172 Tue, 11 Nov 2008 03:54:19 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-352172 I want to thank you for taking the heat for the modesty survey. I believe it is a blessing and very needed. I am a woman glad to be married to a wonderful man and in submission to his God given authority and leadership in my life. I plan to share your website, blog and survey with all of the female church members where I attend church. And, further, I am going to share it with all of my grandchildren...4 girls and one boy. Keep up the good work. Faithfulness to God is everything! I want to thank you for taking the heat for the modesty survey. I believe it is a blessing and very needed. I am a woman glad to be married to a wonderful man and in submission to his God given authority and leadership in my life. I plan to share your website, blog and survey with all of the female church members where I attend church. And, further, I am going to share it with all of my grandchildren…4 girls and one boy.

Keep up the good work. Faithfulness to God is everything!

]]> by: Marissa Byrd http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-345581 Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:04:33 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-345581 my only question after seeing all this and reading your book "Do hard things" is this: When and where are we going to see Katrina's Design Line!?!?! my only question after seeing all this and reading your book “Do hard things” is this: When and where are we going to see Katrina’s Design Line!?!?!

]]> by: Pianogirl http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-341624 Fri, 24 Oct 2008 01:12:17 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-341624 Thanks guys for the survey. I was totally blown away by so many amazing brothers in Christ. You guys have Christ-centered hearts that are concerned with protecting your sisters in Christ. I was immensely encouraged. Thanks guys for the survey.
I was totally blown away by so many amazing brothers in Christ.
You guys have Christ-centered hearts that are concerned with protecting your sisters in Christ. I was immensely encouraged.

]]> by: high blood pressure drug interaction amoxicillin http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-336923 Sat, 18 Oct 2008 21:41:23 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-336923 wilvn owtvfn wilvn owtvfn

]]> by: order allegra http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-336618 Sat, 18 Oct 2008 09:39:23 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-336618 uzep ibvxu thie uzep ibvxu thie

]]> by: Anna J. http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-316414 Mon, 22 Sep 2008 05:41:27 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-316414 hey all! i absolutely loved the modesty survey. it gave me such a better understanding of guys and how they think. I will definately be more careful from now on with the way i dress and act. Alex & Brett, keep up the good work!! I'll be praying for you guy. -anna- :D hey all! i absolutely loved the modesty survey. it gave me such a better understanding of guys and how they think. I will definately be more careful from now on with the way i dress and act. Alex & Brett, keep up the good work!! I’ll be praying for you guy.

-anna- :D

]]> by: Chris http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-298566 Fri, 22 Aug 2008 20:20:41 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-298566 A Homeschooling Mom makes some very good points. I especially enjoyed picturing men walking around with blindfolds on to avoid temptation. :-) For those verses in Romans 2, I substituted the words "Christian" in place of "Jew" and "modesty" in place of "circumcision" in reading it to myself. I think I'm going to share that one with my girls -- explaining the correct context, of course! A Homeschooling Mom makes some very good points. I especially enjoyed picturing men walking around with blindfolds on to avoid temptation. :-) For those verses in Romans 2, I substituted the words “Christian” in place of “Jew” and “modesty” in place of “circumcision” in reading it to myself. I think I’m going to share that one with my girls — explaining the correct context, of course!

]]> by: A Homeschooling Mom http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-292632 Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:22:49 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/04/taking-heat-for-the-modesty-survey/#comment-292632 I think my first concern here is other readers/responders finding any disagreement with your suppositions to be an attack, especially from Satan. I don't doubt that some of that is present, but I have read some very thoughtful remarks by people who represent themselves as Christians but happen to have other opinions or insights. When we must all agree on every detail and there is no room for "iron sharpening iron" then this survey is the least of our worries. I do not read in any verse in the Bible that God, or his Son, preached Totalitarianism. Kudos to both of you for taking thoughtful, reasonable approaches in your answers to those who would debate some of the perceived spirit of the survey. You have had some intelligent commentators and many have made valid points. You have responded in kind. I am grateful for insight into the minds of so many young men. As the mother of both sexes I know the challenges faced by each. My 13-year-old son, however, would not be mature enough emotionally or intellectually to set "policy" for what anyone should wear, not that it will ever be his privilege or right to do so. It WILL be his responsibility to build character (along with guidance and help from God's Word, his father, and me) strong enough to stand against his own flesh when it steals from someone else. Objectifying women by lusting after them for his own pleasures (apart from the wife God gives him to delight in) takes away from what God has created women to be - a reflection of himself. This is true even for women who do not realize it or accept it. My 17-year-old daughter is just now beginning to understand the power she possesses to be a distraction when she is not as thoughtful as she should be in her clothing choice. She just wants to be free in her own body. And I celebrate that on every level except the one where her own freedom supersedes that of others and keeps her from considering her impact. If we all truly lived by "thinking of others more highly than ourselves" as the Bible instructs us, this survey wouldn't be necessary. The boys/men would take full accountability for what they see and what THEY wear to entice and oh, yes they do try to attract in the same inappropriate ways girls sometimes do. And the girls/women would also do the same and consider their brothers, and sisters as another thoughtful responder reminded us, in their choices. The fundamentalist Muslims has solved all of these problems. Women cannot go out without being completely covered so as not to entice men. The full responsibility lies with the women in this scenario and we certainly know the Bible does not teach that concept. It would be as ludicrous to say that all women should go about lightly clothed and free while men wear blindfolds everywhere until they are, once again, only in the company of men. And lest there be any doubt, as has been said here before, women deal with lust, too. If it were not so there would not be very lucrative Calvin Klein ads with scantily dressed men appealing to women; Abercrombie and Fitch would not have nearly nude male mannequins in their windows, etc. Corporate America does not waste money where there is no return. Perhaps it was only the girls/women asking for this survey because it is more in our nature to be reflective and accommodating while boys/men tend to be structural thinkers and not given to making their decisions based on what the other guys/girls think at any given moment. I'm sure THAT comment will lead to some energetic dialogue! :-) I agree with much of what you say and would have concern in other areas that would "seem" to imply less burden on the heart issues and more on what appears on the outside, in all its forms. But as Christians, we truly ARE our brothers (and sisters) keepers. We must always strive to act on behalf of others though we will fail time and time again. As a final thought, Paul took issue with the Jews being so hung up on something outward as well: circumcision. He responded in different passages but a very clear one is Romans 2:28-29 "A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God." It's always been about the heart. Blessings to you both, to you all. I think my first concern here is other readers/responders finding any disagreement with your suppositions to be an attack, especially from Satan. I don’t doubt that some of that is present, but I have read some very thoughtful remarks by people who represent themselves as Christians but happen to have other opinions or insights. When we must all agree on every detail and there is no room for “iron sharpening iron” then this survey is the least of our worries. I do not read in any verse in the Bible that God, or his Son, preached Totalitarianism. Kudos to both of you for taking thoughtful, reasonable approaches in your answers to those who would debate some of the perceived spirit of the survey. You have had some intelligent commentators and many have made valid points. You have responded in kind.

I am grateful for insight into the minds of so many young men. As the mother of both sexes I know the challenges faced by each. My 13-year-old son, however, would not be mature enough emotionally or intellectually to set “policy” for what anyone should wear, not that it will ever be his privilege or right to do so. It WILL be his responsibility to build character (along with guidance and help from God’s Word, his father, and me) strong enough to stand against his own flesh when it steals from someone else. Objectifying women by lusting after them for his own pleasures (apart from the wife God gives him to delight in) takes away from what God has created women to be - a reflection of himself. This is true even for women who do not realize it or accept it.

My 17-year-old daughter is just now beginning to understand the power she possesses to be a distraction when she is not as thoughtful as she should be in her clothing choice. She just wants to be free in her own body. And I celebrate that on every level except the one where her own freedom supersedes that of others and keeps her from considering her impact. If we all truly lived by “thinking of others more highly than ourselves” as the Bible instructs us, this survey wouldn’t be necessary. The boys/men would take full accountability for what they see and what THEY wear to entice and oh, yes they do try to attract in the same inappropriate ways girls sometimes do. And the girls/women would also do the same and consider their brothers, and sisters as another thoughtful responder reminded us, in their choices.

The fundamentalist Muslims has solved all of these problems. Women cannot go out without being completely covered so as not to entice men. The full responsibility lies with the women in this scenario and we certainly know the Bible does not teach that concept. It would be as ludicrous to say that all women should go about lightly clothed and free while men wear blindfolds everywhere until they are, once again, only in the company of men.

And lest there be any doubt, as has been said here before, women deal with lust, too. If it were not so there would not be very lucrative Calvin Klein ads with scantily dressed men appealing to women; Abercrombie and Fitch would not have nearly nude male mannequins in their windows, etc. Corporate America does not waste money where there is no return. Perhaps it was only the girls/women asking for this survey because it is more in our nature to be reflective and accommodating while boys/men tend to be structural thinkers and not given to making their decisions based on what the other guys/girls think at any given moment. I’m sure THAT comment will lead to some energetic dialogue! :-)

I agree with much of what you say and would have concern in other areas that would “seem” to imply less burden on the heart issues and more on what appears on the outside, in all its forms. But as Christians, we truly ARE our brothers (and sisters) keepers. We must always strive to act on behalf of others though we will fail time and time again.

As a final thought, Paul took issue with the Jews being so hung up on something outward as well: circumcision. He responded in different passages but a very clear one is Romans 2:28-29 “A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.”

It’s always been about the heart.

Blessings to you both, to you all.

]]>