It isn’t my intent to delve into the discussion you, Brett, Lucy, and Shield Maiden had except to say by and large I am coming from Brett’s point of view on this subject.

The promised reply is now in a new post on my blog, which I hope all will read.

I understand that there may be other disagreements — particularly because we do not subscribe to the Armenian position taken by men like Michael Pearl — but I’m afraid I cannot carry the discussion further on those matters at this point in time.

Just know that I respect you and Gracie very much and encourage you to keep writing. Both of you are excellent communicators and your abilities will only improve with practice. May God bless you!

She was very dissatisfied with what she wrote when she wrote it, but considering that she didn’t have the time to write a book, she posted it in faith. She is very passionate about this topic (if you didn’t notice) and well she should be for although she is ‘only’ sixteen she has been a Christian for about ten years and has only just become passionate about her God as she has understood this truth in the past eighteen months. Replying to Ryan’s post is in fact a Hard Thing that she felt God called her to do. She is therefore in the position (as I am) of having heard and understood what she is trying to explain from multiple people who had studied it out for themselves and taught with great clarity, but we two are just finally catching on and consequently have a harder time explaining it ourselves.

However, we both agree it is a topic well worth discussing, searching out, trying to explain, and challenging one another on. Both of us greatly dislike writing as a general rule, because when we do we usually feel as though we butchered our topic. More and more however, God has been putting both of us in the position of having to write out what we are trying to relate and trusting Him to use our weakness.

If you read this post please do not assume that I am looking for an arguement. I am very willing to learn and need to be challenged. We have discussed whether or not this is worth our time, and we decided that we are not haggling over pointless arguments, but rather we are trying to understand the very core of our faith. Also, you, whom we already respect and agree with about 99% of the time, are a good place for us to try to explain what we believe. Not only can we edify one another by the discussion but if we can’t explain ourselves sufficiently to you, how are we going to fare when we try to tell someone who has never heard of God? Therefore, I ask for your patience. I chose to post my thoughts here when I first read the discussion: www.seetheking.blogspot.com

I have a bad habit of ‘butting in’. I’ve realized that I don’t accept people with grace…just letting them have their say without trying to correct them or adding an unneeded comments. It just doesn’t help you OR your brother keep the peace on the blog. You might disagree, but I myself have seen the contention that I help add to.

Please, please don’t think I am upset with either of you! I admire your evident love for God’s Word and I realize we are on either sides of an issue that has been debated for centuries — though I realize Gracie that you and Lucy are not in complete agreement either.

I apologize if there was any way in which I misinterpreted or misrepresented either of your positions. Lucy, I accept your apology, though I’m not really sure what there is to forgive!

Let us continue to pursue the truth together — in love and with grace. I just can’t wait until Heaven when Christ himself will explain these things fully to us. For now we see as in a mirror dimly, but then, face to face. =)

Your Brother In Christ,
Brett

Brett:
I wasn’t implying that at all. I’m glad you said something!

I’ve got to stop. I was going to add much more, but I have realized I need to accept people with grace, like the bible says, not correct them.

Brett…I apologize. And I mean that.

Your sister in Christ
Lucy

I think it is important to stress that I am not disagreeing with God’s clear commands in Scripture to stop sinning. I am not saying that it is excusable for Christians to continue in old patterns of sin. I think it is unfair for you to imply that because I believe that Christians must fight their old nature that I am somehow making allowances for sin. Perhaps I am mistaken, but that implication seemed clear to me.

I also believe that we agree more than we think we do. You yourself admit that we are still tempted by sin. I merely argue that such temptation is our old man rearing his ugly head. When we do as you suggest and remind ourselves of the biblical truth that we have died to sin and believe God’s Word enough to say “no” — that is victory in our fight with our sin. And it might not be a “struggle” or a “hardship” for you, but it sure is hard for me and everyone else I know — that’s why we must depend entirely on God’s grace.

Before we were saved we had no choice but to sin — that is what it meant to be slaves to sin. Now that we are saved we are free from that bondage to sin, free from the condemnation of our sin, and now can be victorious over sin through Christ living in us. That is what it means to be dead to sin.

When a real slave is told that he’s been freed the statement, “You are free!” is the reality of what he is — he is free. His challenge now is to begin acting as though that statement is a reality — and that is the struggle.

When God’s Word tells us to “consider ourselves dead to sin” the underlying implication is that we can be dead to sin, but not acting as if we are dead to sin. We must constantly think of ourselves as dead to sin because if we don’t we will continue to act as if we are slaves to sin, even after we have been set free! When Christ told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more the underlying implication is that she could still sin. Otherwise, the command would have been unnecessary.

Our process of sanctification is learning to act like what we really are in Christ. We are dead to sin and we are perfectly righteous in the sight of God because of what Christ accomplished on the Cross. That is justification. But to say that we immediately act perfectly righteous is not supported by Scripture or by practical experience. That is the process of sanctification which Scripture tells us will only be completed when Christ returns (Phil. 1:6).

Again, I wish I had the time to actually develop a comprehensive defense of my position, but I know that countless wiser, godlier men have already done so, and I direct you to them. Specifically I know that Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology does an excellent job of taking into account the whole counsel of God’s Word as it lays out biblical positions on sin, justification, sanctification, and everything beside.

Thank you both for sharing your thoughts and for keeping your speech seasoned with salt! May God richly bless you as we all strive to accurately divide the Word of Truth.

Jhn 8:10
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

Jhn 8:11
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and SIN NO MORE.

Brett-
(”And in nearly all of the epistles he makes some reference to putting off the old man — but that wouldn’t make any sense if we magically stopped sinning as soon as we were saved.”)

When Christ told that woman to go and sin no more, did He really mean something like this?—“Go and cast off your old self. I know that Peter has said you are dead to sin, but you will struggle and be burdened with sin your entire life. Go, and fight against sin.”

No. He didn’t say that. He told that woman to go and sin no more. No sin ever, for the rest of her life. Sin no more, not, no sinning until you’re 70 and you hit a rough patch…He commanded her to stop sinning forever. That woman had been an adulterous and living in sin, obviously not born into newness of life–Christ told her to sin no more, a thing possible only for Christians.

We have to believe she had just been saved…and Christ just told her to stop sinning.

Magic has nothing to do with it. I know you know that, but that is how you perceive it. I was a little taken aback from your choice in words there. Do you really think it’s so unnatural for a man, who is dead to his fleshly body and totally dead to sin, to stop sinning immediately? What do you think it means to be dead to sin? (honest question, no belligerence intended)

‘Putting of the old man’ is no action of ours; we have nothing to do with it. GOD kills our old self

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion oveFor in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

“Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin”

Behold the one and only thing we do to stop sinning, the only command we have concerning ‘stop sinning’…reckon yourself dead to it. It’s that simple. When you are tempted just say, “I’m dead to this” and have faith that what the bible said was true. There is not a word about ’struggling’ and hardship.

Lucy

We are dead to sin (i.e. we are no longer enslaved to it) and released from the curse of sin (i.e. “there is therefore now no condemnation”), but Paul still has to command us to “put to death the deeds of the flesh” (Romans 8:13) and to “walk by the Spirit” so that we no longer “gratify the desires of the flesh” (Galatians 5:16).

In Galatians 5:13 Paul encourages us not to use our freedom as “an opportunity for the flesh,” and in nearly all of the epistles he makes some reference to putting off the old man — but that wouldn’t make any sense if we magically stopped sinning as soon as we were saved. Paul uses himself as an example in Romans 7:14-25 of the ongoing battle with sin that is waged inside us.

You quoted Ephesians 6:12 about our battle not being against flesh and blood, but I’m pretty sure the word “flesh” in that passage is not referring to our “sinful flesh.”

Furthermore, you argue that because Christ cannot sin and Christ is in us we cannot sin — but we are not made fully like Christ as soon as we are saved. Sanctification is the process by which we are transformed from one degree of glory to another. That’s what Paul writes about when he says, “I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians. 1:6).

You are right that God the Father views us as covered in the righteousness of Christ, but that is not the same as us immediately acting as righteous as Christ. That is still a work in progress! This is the difference between “justification” that happens once-for-all and “sanctification” which is an ongoing process.

I wish I had time to really research this and give you more verses. I’d really recommend that your invest in a book such as Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology and read the sections on sin, justification, and sanctification.

You are exactly right that Christ living in us is our only hope. He is the only one who makes it possible for us to fight our sinful flesh and be victorious — but there is a fight and it will never be over in this life. May God bless you sister as you pursue truth!