Comments on: Debt: Who You Gonna Serve? http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/ reb•e•lu•tion (reb’el lu shen) n. a teenage rebellion against low expectations Mon, 21 May 2012 04:04:48 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7.1 hourly 1 By: Carlin N. http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-120540 Carlin N. Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:46:11 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-120540 What if you feel led by God to go somewhere, but going there includes going into some amount of debt? What if you feel led by God to go somewhere, but going there includes going into some amount of debt?

]]> By: Tim Heaton http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-118697 Tim Heaton Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:56:58 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-118697 With more money means giving more? What a great thought! I wish more people would actually do that! Do you know how many tracts you can buy for $50? A lot! More than a thousand!!! (And, good quality ones too! The kind that are clear on the message, and VERY attractive too! www.livingwater.com or www.customtractsource.com ) Do you know that most people give between $10 and $50 per month when they support a missionary? $10 a month isn't much, but it's something; less than a dollar a day! I'm pretty sure where my money is going, and God willing, these are eternal investments! Praise the Lord to give more away. With more money means giving more? What a great thought! I wish more people would actually do that! Do you know how many tracts you can buy for $50? A lot! More than a thousand!!! (And, good quality ones too! The kind that are clear on the message, and VERY attractive too! http://www.livingwater.com or http://www.customtractsource.com )

Do you know that most people give between $10 and $50 per month when they support a missionary? $10 a month isn’t much, but it’s something; less than a dollar a day!

I’m pretty sure where my money is going, and God willing, these are eternal investments!

Praise the Lord to give more away.

]]> By: Grace http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-118206 Grace Tue, 28 Aug 2007 13:07:17 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-118206 I hate debt! My family has always been in debt! But oddly, mortgages and student loans seem to be one of God's way of providing for my family's needs. He has also provided a car in time of need, and then kept it running for 5 years although it should have only lasted a few months (that car died on the drive home when we got a new car.) But usually we are given fixed rate loans that are within our means. But on that heading Alcorn called it preying off of God's provision, I'm not sure it always is. Even when my Dad was out of work for about 5 years God always provided the money for the mortgage and the food. We had many in our family (physical and church) telling us to declare bankruptcy, but by God's grace the money we owed was always paid. We had moved into a tiny house in a bad neighborhood so we wouldn't be throwing money away on rent, because we felt that it was not good stewardship to live someplace where we were basically burning large sums every month. I'm not sure what the difference is between following where God leads believing that He can provide for financial debt that following incures and following only when the money is provided in advance or on the spot by God. Debt is a form of slavery, but God called slaves. He comanded that they strive to be free, but He never promised that they would be free from their physical masters if they followed Him. Rather, He said that we were to serve those masters faithfully and joyfully as we serve our Heavenly Master (making the slaves job harder). I hate debt! My family has always been in debt! But oddly, mortgages and student loans seem to be one of God’s way of providing for my family’s needs. He has also provided a car in time of need, and then kept it running for 5 years although it should have only lasted a few months (that car died on the drive home when we got a new car.) But usually we are given fixed rate loans that are within our means. But on that heading Alcorn called it preying off of God’s provision, I’m not sure it always is. Even when my Dad was out of work for about 5 years God always provided the money for the mortgage and the food. We had many in our family (physical and church) telling us to declare bankruptcy, but by God’s grace the money we owed was always paid. We had moved into a tiny house in a bad neighborhood so we wouldn’t be throwing money away on rent, because we felt that it was not good stewardship to live someplace where we were basically burning large sums every month.
I’m not sure what the difference is between following where God leads believing that He can provide for financial debt that following incures and following only when the money is provided in advance or on the spot by God. Debt is a form of slavery, but God called slaves. He comanded that they strive to be free, but He never promised that they would be free from their physical masters if they followed Him. Rather, He said that we were to serve those masters faithfully and joyfully as we serve our Heavenly Master (making the slaves job harder).

]]> By: Sean http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-117993 Sean Tue, 28 Aug 2007 01:46:01 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-117993 I think the deal with mortgages is that many buy homes above and beyond their means. Houses have gotten bigger and bigger and more and more expensive, then you see both husband and wife working to make the payment. It's a keep up with the Jones mentality The whole idea is the principle of debt. We should strive to not go into debt. Debt in and of it self is not a sin. Neither is being a slave. But do we want to be slaves to debt. I for don't. My parents had no guidance when they were young with this and they fell into debt, now they are working their way out of it and they have taught me that debt is a form of bondage that can prevent you from giving you 100% to the Lord. I think the deal with mortgages is that many buy homes above and beyond their means. Houses have gotten bigger and bigger and more and more expensive, then you see both husband and wife working to make the payment. It’s a keep up with the Jones mentality The whole idea is the principle of debt. We should strive to not go into debt.

Debt in and of it self is not a sin. Neither is being a slave. But do we want to be slaves to debt. I for don’t. My parents had no guidance when they were young with this and they fell into debt, now they are working their way out of it and they have taught me that debt is a form of bondage that can prevent you from giving you 100% to the Lord.

]]> By: Michael Bird http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-117813 Michael Bird Mon, 27 Aug 2007 15:58:23 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-117813 I think the overall point is that we should be weary of going into debt and the power it gives people over us. But lending and borrowing money is something of this world and it is how you handle it is what makes the difference. It Romans where it says to leave "no debt outstanding," along as you are making payments or an effort on that debt it will not be left outstanding. As for mortgages, many of them require a 20% down payment to reduce most fees and to guarantee. This shows the lender or the bank that you are committed to the investment. The article mentions that the payments may stifle the ability to give and put you in dire straights. Again, the article stresses discretion when going for lending. The most interest part of the article I found was the minimum of 10% given to the church. Again I find it's not how much you give, but the spirit in which you give. You can give all your money away, but if it do it with selfish motive or a hardened heart it will be in vain. A cup of water given in the spirit of Christ can have a huge impact. Often people with a passion for Christ give much more than 10%. The Old Testament is a good place to start in this regard. I hold tithing as a good principal. I think the overall point is that we should be weary of going into debt and the power it gives people over us. But lending and borrowing money is something of this world and it is how you handle it is what makes the difference. It Romans where it says to leave “no debt outstanding,” along as you are making payments or an effort on that debt it will not be left outstanding.

As for mortgages, many of them require a 20% down payment to reduce most fees and to guarantee. This shows the lender or the bank that you are committed to the investment. The article mentions that the payments may stifle the ability to give and put you in dire straights. Again, the article stresses discretion when going for lending.

The most interest part of the article I found was the minimum of 10% given to the church. Again I find it’s not how much you give, but the spirit in which you give. You can give all your money away, but if it do it with selfish motive or a hardened heart it will be in vain. A cup of water given in the spirit of Christ can have a huge impact. Often people with a passion for Christ give much more than 10%. The Old Testament is a good place to start in this regard. I hold tithing as a good principal.

]]> By: Michelle McCorkle http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-117511 Michelle McCorkle Mon, 27 Aug 2007 02:15:46 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-117511 Oh, and, btw, my parents are debt free, and I plan to be, as well. My point is that I don't think we have the right to label going into debt a "sin." Oh, and, btw, my parents are debt free, and I plan to be, as well. My point is that I don’t think we have the right to label going into debt a “sin.”

]]> By: Michelle McCorkle http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-116996 Michelle McCorkle Sat, 25 Aug 2007 22:03:09 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-116996 Lucy, in the context, Paul was talking about rendering to everyone there dues. I would like to see what it says in the original Greek, but it strikes me as more of an instruction than a command. (I.e. "this is the best course of action," not, "it's a sin if you owe anyone anything.") As I said in my previous post, "Alcorn said, 'Borrowing is always involved whenever there is lending. Since lending is sometimes permissible, so is borrowing. Still, normally it is the righteous who are lenders rather than borrowers.'" Righteous men would not be allowed to lend money if the very act of borrowing is a sin, because they would be helping others sin, which is clearly a sin itself. :-) Lucy, in the context, Paul was talking about rendering to everyone there dues. I would like to see what it says in the original Greek, but it strikes me as more of an instruction than a command. (I.e. “this is the best course of action,” not, “it’s a sin if you owe anyone anything.”) As I said in my previous post, “Alcorn said, ‘Borrowing is always involved whenever there is lending. Since lending is sometimes permissible, so is borrowing. Still, normally it is the righteous who are lenders rather than borrowers.’” Righteous men would not be allowed to lend money if the very act of borrowing is a sin, because they would be helping others sin, which is clearly a sin itself. :-)

]]> By: Anika http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-116745 Anika Sat, 25 Aug 2007 08:28:34 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-116745 Oh thanks Lucy! I myself was a bit confused reading the article as to his opinion (which doesn't bother me...the verses by themselves are helpful.) Then I read your comment which said "He affirms it all the way", and assumed that you thought his position was close to yours, and my curiosity overwhelmed me as to why you thought so. :) My own opinion is very fuzzy at the moment so I have been talking to my parents about it, and will continue to do so. A theologian I respect very highly (A.W. Pink) believed it wasn't biblical to be in any debt at all, and often quoted Romans 13 in his letters to people on the subject. Then again, other theologians (who I also respect highly) point out the verses about lending and borrowing in the Old Testament. And I have heard of people who in their strict adherence to 'no debt at all' have violated other Biblical commands in order to remain that way. However, I do not think that all the horror stories in the world about what happens when people refuse to go into debt would be of any help in deciding on this issue. There are much, much worse horror stories to be heard about people who got into trouble because they wished to follow Christ completely, on other, less 'controversial' issues. (By the way, I just want to add that the couple who violated Biblical commands in order to keep what they saw as a Biblical command to remain debt free are not good role models. The rest of the paragraph in which I placed that story refers to other scenarios where people suffer loss (but attempt to keep all other Biblical commands) through remaining debt free. :)) I'm not sure yet. For a long time I have put this issue into the "too hard, leave it till I need it" basket, but I guess I'll have to address it sometime soon. Oh thanks Lucy! I myself was a bit confused reading the article as to his opinion (which doesn’t bother me…the verses by themselves are helpful.) Then I read your comment which said “He affirms it all the way”, and assumed that you thought his position was close to yours, and my curiosity overwhelmed me as to why you thought so. :)

My own opinion is very fuzzy at the moment so I have been talking to my parents about it, and will continue to do so. A theologian I respect very highly (A.W. Pink) believed it wasn’t biblical to be in any debt at all, and often quoted Romans 13 in his letters to people on the subject. Then again, other theologians (who I also respect highly) point out the verses about lending and borrowing in the Old Testament.

And I have heard of people who in their strict adherence to ‘no debt at all’ have violated other Biblical commands in order to remain that way. However, I do not think that all the horror stories in the world about what happens when people refuse to go into debt would be of any help in deciding on this issue. There are much, much worse horror stories to be heard about people who got into trouble because they wished to follow Christ completely, on other, less ‘controversial’ issues.

(By the way, I just want to add that the couple who violated Biblical commands in order to keep what they saw as a Biblical command to remain debt free are not good role models. The rest of the paragraph in which I placed that story refers to other scenarios where people suffer loss (but attempt to keep all other Biblical commands) through remaining debt free. :))

I’m not sure yet. For a long time I have put this issue into the “too hard, leave it till I need it” basket, but I guess I’ll have to address it sometime soon.

]]> By: Agent 507 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-116562 Agent 507 Fri, 24 Aug 2007 22:08:04 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-116562 My folks and I don't say debt is a sin, and the only thing they ever took a loan on in about 20 years was for a house. Other than that, they highly discourage it. Someone mentioned Dave Ramsey; even though I am under 18, I have been through his course and can really recommend it; His style may step on some people's comfort zones, but that is usually not a problem and his principles are sound. Go Dave Ramsey :) My folks and I don’t say debt is a sin, and the only thing they ever took a loan on in about 20 years was for a house. Other than that, they highly discourage it.
Someone mentioned Dave Ramsey; even though I am under 18, I have been through his course and can really recommend it; His style may step on some people’s comfort zones, but that is usually not a problem and his principles are sound. Go Dave Ramsey :)

]]> By: Lucy http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-116554 Lucy Fri, 24 Aug 2007 21:42:24 +0000 http://www.therebelution.com/blog/2007/08/debt-who-you-gonna-serve/#comment-116554 Anika... Those were my personal thoughts, not an interpretation of Alcorn's article. Some of the points he made confirmed my feelings about debt. Romans 13:5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. === This doesn't seem like a very 'spiritual' passage, if you catch my meaning...it seems literal to me. Michelle brought up that it didn't think it was a command to be debt free, but never gave her reasoning behind why she thought that way. I'd like to her it please! (Not joking. I really do.) Maybe I was wrong. I would also like to ask anybody who has heard of someone who made a choice never to be in debt and failed. Failure doesn't mean they only had 20 dollars for groceries every week. Failing as in they had to borrow and go in debt. Thanks! Anika…

Those were my personal thoughts, not an interpretation of Alcorn’s article. Some of the points he made confirmed my feelings about debt.

Romans 13:5
Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Rom 13:6
For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Rom 13:7
Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

===
This doesn’t seem like a very ’spiritual’ passage, if you catch my meaning…it seems literal to me.

Michelle brought up that it didn’t think it was a command to be debt free, but never gave her reasoning behind why she thought that way. I’d like to her it please! (Not joking. I really do.) Maybe I was wrong.

I would also like to ask anybody who has heard of someone who made a choice never to be in debt and failed. Failure doesn’t mean they only had 20 dollars for groceries every week. Failing as in they had to borrow and go in debt. Thanks!

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