MARY WRITES: I’ve noticed that almost all of the modesty conversation centers around what ladies can do to help guys out, but I haven’t seen anything about guys needing to be modest. I understand that it’s because guys are more visual in general, but I tend to be more of a visual person too, and seeing guys shirtless can be tempting. Should guys think about modesty too, or is this my problem to deal with?
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Hey Mary,
I think it does go both ways. I think the difference is guys are more vocal about it. Though, it is possible guys have more intense visual stimuli, though since I’ve never been a young woman, I really can’t compare – just ask questions.
And, as much as popular belief is to contrary, I think young woman are, if anything, have more intense emotions. The temptation for lust is no exception.
So, yes, because of this, I believe that young men like myself should be modest. A double standard is not acceptable. And, even though I am not the most “filled out” guy in the world, I don’t go swimming shirtless. Haha. Which is probably a good thing for the world. lol.
I actually wrote a fairly popular article about this on The Soldiers of God.
http://foreversoldiersofgod.blogspot.com/2014/12/true-modesty.html
I’m curious what everyone else thinks?
I totally agree with you, Trent. Modesty (or lack thereof) doesn’t affect only guys. I too have a visual mind.
I think Paul is very clear about limiting our freedoms in order to keep a brother or sister from stumbling. That applies to guys and girls. So, the answer is yes. Modesty is no more a girl thing than it should be a guy thing.
At the same time, I think we need to remember that WE are responsible for our own thought life. Our lustful thoughts are no one’s fault but our own, so modesty isn’t our get-out-of-jail-free card to excuse our own sinful thoughts.
So, to sum it all up! Yes, guys are called to do their best to keep their sisters in Christ from stumbling just as much as girls are called to do so to guys. As Mary pointed out, usually the “guys be modest” isn’t touched on in most sermons. That doesn’t make it any less Biblical though!
Good idea bringing Paul into this. Romans chapter 14 goes a long way.
Well, he has a lot to say!
Good question. Yes, all people — whether male or female — should strive to be modest.
Recently I read a good article on here entitled The Other Side of Modesty. Here’s the link: http://therebelution.com/blog/2013/06/the-other-side-of-modesty/#.VU-dDflViko
I happen to have many thoughts on this. But I wrote a blogpost which covers my thoughts on this: http://gossamerlense.blogspot.com/2013/09/modesty-is-two-way-thing.html
I’d love to hear if anyone agrees with me!
I agree the temptations go both ways, for example one of the main reasons guys try to do the most push-ups is to get the girl’s attention. Every guy wants to be the one that can bench five hundred pounds and go swimming with a twelve pack to get the girl. We guys need to remember we won’t be ripped for ever and if that’s how you got the girl then when the muscles go so to will the affection of the girl. The sad thing is that he world lies to both guys and girls telling them the only way to find the ‘one’ is being the most beautiful or strongest, which is a blatant lie.
Yeah, it’s old repackaged lie of “survival of the…” wait… did you say, “twelve pack”!?
Wow, twelve pack? You’ve got serious abs!
Hahaha, this is funny…coming from a guy with a no-pac. XD
In regard to clothing, the best answer I have heard to the objection that modesty teaching is given disproportionately to women is that the Bible does this as well. The two flagship verses of modesty, 1st Tim 2:9-10 and 1st Pt 3:3-4 are both addressed to women. Dannah Gresh treated this subject in her address to Cedarville University April 7th of this year. If anyone wants, you can stream the message here: http://www.cedarville.edu/Chapel/Archive.aspx
In regard to guys “generally” being more visual than women, I would simply say that the fact that you “can” be tempted when you see a guy without his shirt is why we say guys are more visual. A guy not only can but will be tempted if he were to see a girl without her shirt on. If you want to research this difference further I would recommend the book Hero or Every Man’s Battle by Fred Stoeker as he talks more about the difference between how guys and girls work in this area and how, quite frankly, girls have no frame of reference for how guys work in this dimension.
I think this is related to the difference in how God created the sexes and in the fact that men, as the initiators, were made to notice and then pursue, whereas women were made to desire to be noticed and pursued. For that reason, while a girl could be tempted through the sight of a man, it is less likely and less strong as the natural desire in that regard is less. Whereas, since men were made to notice women, it is far easier for that desire to be bent and the temptation far stronger when it is so bent because it warps a stronger appetite.
Ok, but if the woman is the one who has a desire to be “pursued”, then shirtless and immodest guys will most likely grab this woman’s attention, right? If she has a hunger for romance and affection, won’t guys showing off their muscles make her chase after a guy like a guy would chase after an attractive girl (hopefully us Rebultionaries don’t base our affection off physical appearance, but unfortunately, that’s how most of the world works). Maybe I’m not fully understanding your point, but I think that it’s only fair that guys and girls are modest. If a guy is going to ask a girl to dress modestly, it’s only fair that he do the same.
LOL. I just wrote a comment saying pretty much the same thing. 😀
It says it’s waiting to approved. That’s weird, because this comment didn’t need to be approved… :/
Aww well I hope it pops up again. Sometimes the filter on the blog likes to act up. Looking forward to reading it (hopefully)!
Hey, you probably said (voluntary or not) a “dirty” word…heIl will do it, as well as some other things. (I got around that by doing h, e, capital i, l lol)
HA I figured it out. It was the word s e x. I just posted a reply to you saying “Would the word s e x do it?” (Without splitting up the letters), and it says it’s waiting for approval. 😀
*first thought*: Why on earth is she talking about s e x?????
*second thought*: Oh yeah, gender….ok. =P
Actually I wasn’t talking about gender. XD It was in a quote. Hopefully it will make more sense when the comment comes through. XD
Hahaha ok. =P
But seriously, glad you figured it out! =D
Lol that’s really weird. I hate it when I accidentally write down what other people are thinking…but great minds think alike, right?
Haha, exactly. But now the page is refreshed, it’s disappeared! 🙁
Good point and, judging from the replies, it would appear that I under-estimated the extent to which girls can be tempted through the eyes. I do agree that guys should be modest as they ask the girls to, I guess I was operating of the premise that it is unlikely for a guy to be immodest due to what I assumed to be a lack of interest on the part of girls. It looks like I was wrong. The primary point I was trying to address in my comment was the disproportionality in the amount of time spent talking to girls about modesty versus the amount of time spent teaching men on the same subject, as opposed to, whether or not men should dress modestly to begin with.
I will say, I have learned something new through this conversation and that is that apparently shirtless guys can be an issue. I knew that girls tended to drop their dress code at the beach and that was a problem for us but I didn’t know it went the other way around as well. Good to know.
*Quick note, my sister ( @mimeforjesus:disqus ) recommends I put smileys in to convey my tone. As an electrical engineering student having completed his freshman year of college smileys seem a little out of character, but, for what it is worth, I’m Happy 🙂 🙂 🙂 !!! (To convey that I appreciate what is being said and am not angry, perturbed, exasperated, etc.)
Ok thanks for the clarification. I totally get it with the smileys 🙂 I have to be really careful when I comment because sometimes I mean it a certain way in my head but it doesn’t come out right when I type it, you know? Thanks for the food for thought!
Woah, you’re @mimeforjesus:disqus’s brother? Kew! And welcome to the Reb! =D
*Gasp* @mimeforjesus:disqus’s brother??!! That’s so cool! You probably already know, but your sister is kinda notorious on here… 😛 Great to have you here! 🙂 (Yes, I love smileys and use them way too much.)
No, I didn’t know she was notorious. Interesting. She did mention being somewhat opinionated, which I already knew, but I haven’t, as of yet, seen any of her posts except for one where she exchanged some 20 something comments about C.S. Lewis and his books.
Well, she’s on a break from The Rebelution, Revive, and a bunch of other blogs at the moment, so you probably won’t see her around on the recent posts. She’s usually pretty active though. 🙂
Btw, I meant notorious as a good thing. We all love good ol’ MFJ. 🙂
Notorious?! Whaaat…? Okay, I guess I might be. Among mods, that is — I probably flood their inboxes whenever I’m on. But why am I notorious among you guys?
Yes, I do. Would you like to enlighten me?
By the way, I heard that you called me “evil French toast” once… somebody has some explaining to do! If you even remember.
You forgot, I’m with the NSA. I have evidence! My informant said it was on the “What to you love about these discussion questions” DQ. I haven’t sorted through the hundreds — or was it thousands — of comments yet.
I’ll have to talk to my informer. And if you just looked, I’ll stop scrolling through the 1,000+ comments over there. But it’s actually entertaining to see old convos. Especially the one between Trent and Yoda!
Christopher 164.
She’s gonna make it into a big scandal and get you in jail. 😛
Haha yeah…
Uh-oh. Sam’s in trouble.
Haha:)
haha 🙂 A rebellious teenager? Or a misunderstood one?
Yeahhh.
Hey, I said later that I meant notorious in a good way – just ‘well known.’ Which you are!
Yep, I saw that 🙂 I just like the word notorious. (But really, I”m that well known?!)
Oh, right. 😛 Weellll, maybe you’re not as well know as I think you are. But all us frequent commenters know you!
Seems like we talked about this earlier… 🙂
Hmm, it does… 😛
Oh, I just remembered, the word is notoriety 🙂
MFJ’s bro? That’s awesome! Looks like you’re automatically popular. 😛 lol
Fascinating.
Hey! Thank you for your comment. I was the one who sent in this question a while ago, before I decided to jump in and start commenting. I’m glad people didn’t think it was so horrible it didn’t deserve a reply. 😉
To be fair, the people preaching in the Bible were mostly men. I think the ladies probably could have told them a thing or two about the way the Roman guys looked without shirts… 😉 I do agree with what you said about how God created the sexes. However, women can be tempted strongly too – maybe not in the same way or as powerfully, but still in a way that can lead us into sin. I think that’s one thing that guys and girls need to communicate better about, because I don’t think a lot of guys realize what a problem this is for some girls.
Anyway, thanks again for your comment! It’s very thoughtful and I love being part of a site where discussions are so respectful. 😀
Thanks for your reply, as I noted below in my reply to Emigb4 ( https://disqus.com/home/discussion/therebelution/should_guys_be_modest_too/#comment-2017606970 ) I have learned something new in this conversation and that is that apparently guys can dress immodestly. My assumption was that as long as we remembered shorts we were pretty much good. ( I wasn’t actually quite that bad, I have three shirts which are tight and have sleeve lengths which showcase the biceps (not much if you are me) and, following a chapel address in which the president (of my university) made a comment about guys not wearing shirts that showed off our muscles, I stopped wearing them).
I have one quick note, however, in reply to your reply and that is in regard to you argument prefaced by the statement: “To be fair, the people preaching in the Bible were mostly men”. I would be quite cautious making an argument off such a line as you are arguing that due to an insufficiency in the authorship, the Bible does not contain a comprehensive counsel for living. I realize you probably were not thinking about it like this when you said it but such arguments are dangerous because they allow us to introduce teachings or beliefs that are not subject to the Word of God but rather compensate for an inadequacy therein.
Your point, that the Bible doesn’t say much about how guys look without shirts stands; however, the same could be said vice versa. The solution, however, isn’t to blame the authorship but to do exactly what we are doing, consult our brothers and sisters in Christ and find these sorts of things out. It does include directions to do that. 🙂
Thanks for your comments, I did not know that, while there is certainly a difference in the way it affects guys and girls, modesty can be an issue either way.
I’m glad that this discussion helped then. 🙂
Yes, I realize now that that comment was pretty rash, and didn’t come off as intended. I didn’t mean to imply that the Bible was inadequate, I meant that since many who preached at the time were men, we directly get a point of view from them. Therefore, there are more passages literally about modesty of women than modesty of men. However, as you pointed out, it does tell us to consult our brothers and sisters to help each other slay free of sin. The Bible is not inadequate because of that difference then, but it is one we should be aware of. (I didn’t express that very well at all, did I? Hmm, well, lesson learned for next time.)
And no, you didn’t come off too hard, I’m glad for the help! I appreciate your concern for the soul of a complete stranger you’re typing to over the internet. 😉 😀
Yes: Luke 17:1-3.
I don’t know about y’all, but I don’t like the concept of being thrown in the ocean with a millstone around my neck…just saying. XD
Oh, check out http://christopher164.weebly.com/blog/devotional-corner-immodest-millstone . Thanks, @christopher164:disqus! =)
Agreed!
Yeah, I’m not big on the whole death by drowning idea… I’ll just keep my shirt on outside, thanks!
YES! girls aren’t blind ya know!
grrrrrrrrrr… I typed out a comment without posting it, checked a different page, and now it’s gone. 🙁 I’ll re-type later if I can.
YES PLEASE GUYS, BE MODEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My top pet peeve: when there is a 6 inch long explanation regulating what girls should (not) wear. and then there is one sentence addressing the guys. Ugh, it drives me crazy. I used to go to a private Christian school. When we had our spring dance, the teachers were soooooo particular about what the girls wore. It was definitely way too legalistic. It came to a point where they were literally measuring how wide the straps were on the dress and also the length of the skirt from the knee with a ruler. This one girl was wearing a really pretty dress that was not revealing in any way, the teacher came up, measured her dress length and literally made her change into one of our plaid green uniform dresses because it was a half inch off.
Anyway (sorry for that rant) I think that guys modesty doesn’t just pertain to what they wear but to how they act. So what if a guy is wearing modest clothes, he can still act extremely flirtatiously around girls. After all, our appearances isn’t our identity. Our actions have to reflect the love of Jesus Christ. So, yes guys please dress modestly, but also think about how you’re acting around your sisters in Christ as well as girls who are non believers.
Well, I will say that generally guys don’t go around wearing super-short shorts and shirts that ride down too low and stuff…we tend to be slightly more modest. 😉
Hey Josh A! Thanks for your comment!
I think that modesty (for guys as well as girls) means BOTH dressing appropriately as well as keeping our actions, thoughts and words pure. We need to guard our hearts especially under the harsh pressure of today’s society.
Agreed! =)
Should guys be modest? Yes yes yes!! I’m surprised you haven’t seen anything around this site that has pointed that out (not saying that’s your fault for not seeing it!!) – there’s actually a fair bit. There’s this post for a start: http://therebelution.com/blog/2013/06/the-other-side-of-modesty/. And, as you can see below, a lot of teens from here have written about it on their own blogs. We also can tend to stray into that topic on random posts every now and again… Anyway, I think the simple answer is yes, modesty should be considered by guys too. 🙂
Thanks for the link! Yeah, I’m pretty new around here. I read Do Hard Things for the first time this winter, and just now jumped in on the website too! So thanks for helping the new girl out. 🙂
You’re welcome, Mary! Welcome to the Rebelution then! Hope you have fun exploring. 🙂
lol, just realized I forgot to say that yes, I’m the one who sent in the question XD
Question: Should Guys Be Modest Too? Answer: Absolutely Not! The previous sentence was a joke, specifically designed to test your self-control and ability to perceive lies and discern false from fiction.
I don’t suppose I could in any way redeem myself (in light of my prior statement) by admitting that I also swim with a shirt on?
Ha, ha! Funny!
XD
Yeah, guys can definitely be immodest. I think in most cases, it’s usually also just poor taste. Like the shorts riding so low they’re about to fall off… it’s almost funny. 😛 I mean, who said that was attractive?? But what bothers me way more is when guys are acting like jerks. Seriously, from what I’ve seen, for many guys that’s a wayy bigger issue than clothes.
But as for specific standards, that could vary slightly depending on your area. Personally I don’t really care when the guys at my youth group swim shirtless, but I guess some people might. Something that really bothers me is when legalism starts to take over. If a new Christian walks into church with the “wrong” kind of clothes on, many times they’ll be getting judgmental glances and comments. That’s the complete opposite of the kind of love Christ taught us to have! I think we can all agree the MOST important thing is that your heart/attitude is right.
Guys that act like jerks drive me nuts! I know a guy who thinks he’s too cool to hug his grandmother. O_O I agree that that is a big problem!!
Hey, Ruthie! Can you elaborate on what you mean by “acting like jerks”? Obviously, I have my own mental picture, but I’m curious what things jump into yours (and others) minds when you bring that into this conversation! Thanks!
Sorry to jump in. I’m not Ruthie, but a jerk in my mind is a guy with a “too cool for anyone else” mindset. If he isn’t nice, humble, or respectful, he gets labeled as a guy to stay away from.
I was expecting others to jump in; don’t apologize! Thanks for the input.
Technically, I think everyone is a jerk at some point in there life. But usually what classifies someone as a jerk in my book -at least in the sense in which you’re talking about- is someone who plays on other’s emotions. (As a side note, that’s one of the reasons I’m against dating. It messes up your emotions.) Whether that be with their attitude, actions or the way they dress, (yes, the way people dress can have a part in playing on other’s emotions), if they’re doing it intentionally with the sole purpose of gaining attention (especially the wrong kind of attention) I consider them a jerk. And that goes for guys and girls. Aside from that definition, a jerk to me is generally someone who is full of themselves and shows a lack of respect and consideration to those around them.
Nice profile pic! I agree with @Abbyallen1:disqus and @brooklynmm:disqus. “Acting like a jerk” could be manipulating other’s emotions, constantly disrespecting authority, treating family members like less-than-dirt, just being really full of himself, etc. Of course girls can definitely be jerks too; it’s definitely not limited to guys!
Agreed. But I was wondering if you meant something more than the classic definition. Everybody hates guys that are acting like jerks. So did you have any particular behaviors in mind (beyond what Brooklyn and Abby pointed out)?
And thanks! I like the pic too!
Hmm, I can’t think of many other specifics right now. I’ll let you know if I do!
Okay! Thanks!
Well, the guys who think they’re so cool that of course they deserve the girls, are jerks who (in some strange way) can also be attractive. Does that help? Think Tony Stark…
I think guys should be modest, in part because I don’t like asking for something I’m not willing to give. Also because I see modesty as a heart issue, why do you want someone to see the contours of your body? For me I know it’s mostly for pride reasons (maybe I’m just an abnormally terrible Christian 😉 ) I believe most guys show off their bodies to attract girls and make other guys jealous. Might be wrong, but it’s my view.
Well, let’s just look at it from another angle. If we say guys don’t need to be modest, that would mean we are free to be immodest, right? That just doesn’t ring true!
Ooooh…someone just turned from a canoe into a ninja! 😉
Ha, ha, the canoe was just my cover I.D.!
=P
Haha! You guys crack me up XD
My pleasure! Literally!
Same here!
Yes, yes, YES!!! Guys should be modest too! A lot of articles and websites focus on the girls side of modesty. And while, yes, that is very important, guys need to take into consideration what they wear (or don’t wear, for the fellas that prefer to parade around shirtless) and how it can affect young ladies trying to stay pure.
Guys are visual, but girls can be too. It’s very tempting to lust when a guy isn’t dressed in an appropriate manner. So, yes, the guys side of modesty is very important too! I recommend the article The Other Side of Modesty. I’m sure someone else has posted the link to it. 🙂 It gives great answers to your question!
Good response to this question! I agree that girls can be as equally tempted as guys. Thanks for your comment!
I think people have covered most of the areas here (and I agree with what they’re saying). I did want to bring up the subject of swimming “gear”. I have get togethers with my sunday school group (“youth group”) and we swim at our leaders’ house. The ages range from 13-24, and there are no guys really my age (just one-NOT my type 😉 ). They don’t wear shirts while swimming and I don’t find it distracting at all. However, if I see some shirtless model draped across a store front at the mall or walking down the street, THAT is distracting. I think it definitely has to do with where these guys’ hearts are (big difference between the two groups) and also the location. Not to be legalistic, but it’s a case of some clothing being appropriate in different places and not in others. As a girl, I wear a one-piece competition swimsuit and shorts, but I wouldn’t walk through the mall with that on! However, I feel it’s appropriate at the pool.
I don’t get that though. Why should modesty depend on location? I don’t think dressing immodestly is appropriate even when swimming (unless, of course, you are alone). When my brothers go swimming, they wear shirts and I respect and appreciate the Godly example they set. Dressing modestly at public swimming pools raises questions and I find it the perfect opportunity to witness to people and share with them my Biblical beliefs on modesty. I dress modestly at a pool because I don’t wish to be a stumbling block to anyone. If immodestly dressed people at a swimming pool don’t bother you, that’s fine. But you may not know how the way you dress effects others. Even in the safe setting of your youth group. None of us are above temptation and you don’t know where everyone else’s heart is. I don’t understand how immodesty is acceptable in some places, but not in others. Isn’t that a conflict of standards?
Yeah, I get what you’re saying. For the most part I was saying how I personally was affected by male modesty. I’m not sure why it’s different in those locations, but (like I said before), seeing guys at the pool without shirts isn’t a stumbling block for me (and I understand it can be for others and I do not judge them at all – Romans 14) but it can be more tempting outside of that situation. Your comment about having a conflict of standards has made me think more. I consider my swim attire modest. As far as I know, all the guys at these afore mentioned pool “parties” don’t have a problem with what I wear (I’m confident they would approach me with love to tell me if there was a problem). On as side note, we shouldn’t be legalistic, but having a specific standard for yourself based on your conscience is helpful (for me at least – such as no spaghetti strap tops). Thanks for the great discussion – any more thoughts?
I kind of agree with both of you. I’m really against double standards like Abby said, but I agree with Emma too. Would you wear hiking boots to your wedding or a swimsuit to church? Probably not…that would be awkward :). But at the same time you shouldn’t sacrifice your modesty standards for athletics either. I see both of your points.
Yes I think so, guys wandering around without shirts on can be uncomfortable for me. Never quite sure where to be looking. But I think the major issue for me would be guys being immodest in attitude and the way they interact with girls. One guy springs to mind who is constantly obviously flirting, getting up close and personal with all the girls, hugging, falling asleep on their shoulders, sitting close (ie. thighs touching). His actions cause me to struggle.
Modesty involves a lot more than just your clothes. It includes the state of your heart and mind. We all need to be in a spirit of modesty. Along with what Emma said: Pool setting vs. Mall setting does play into it. If a guy goes shirtless at a pool, it’s obviously cause he’s swimming. If he goes shirtless in a mall, he definitely has other motives. I believe a guy can have his shirt off in an appropriate setting, and still hold a spirit of modesty. So with all that said, YES! Guys should definitely be modest! Our actions, words and clothing should not be used to draw glory and attention to ourselves, but to our Creator!Thanks, asker-of-the-question (Mary), for making me more aware of the fact that girls also can struggle visually like guys! I know what it’s like, and I don’t want to be the cause of an unnecessary struggle, either! Very good question!
Even at the pools, guys can still wear shirts. Sure, it can be a little inconvenient, but it would be nice for all of us girls that are trying to be modest too. Girls struggle too! 🙂
Yes, definitely! I actually would prefer avoiding a “pool or lake” setting when I’m with a group of kids my age (outside of my family) with both genders involved. Those atmospheres seem to set us up for temptation and make us more likely to stumble. I would say, though, that if looking and lusting is a problem for someone, they shouldn’t set themselves up for failure, or go somewhere (like a pool) and expect everyone to dress according to their struggles. That’s not how it works, either.
Yes, of course but for the guys who are aware….you know what I mean? 🙂
Absolutely! If I was at a pool (or the like), and I knew there were girls who struggled with it there, I wouldn’t feel right going with my shirt off.
Yes! 🙂
Just a thought from the female mind here. 🙂 If you are more physically comfortable swimming shirtless, I would consider wearing a shirt until you are in the water. If the pool/lake is deep enough, the water may cover your skin and it won’t be as immodest. Maybe??? I don’t know. Maybe this will help you and maybe it be entirely useless but I hope it helps 🙂
I think we need to find a line between spiritual/physical modesty and legalism. I think this whole issue (guys and gals being modest) pertains more to the heart and our relationship with God rather than how much skin we show.
Yup. That makes a lot of sense. When it comes to modesty, that’s my main goal is to follow God’s rules.
Haha, yeah you save a ton of money on sun-screen too. 😜
Good point!
🙂 awesome response!
Thanks 🙂
Honestly, I’ve always thought modesty should be for both girls and guys. I was hanging out with a friend of mine a while back and she mentioned that it bothered her to see immodestly dressed women, but then she said it was okay for guys to walk around without shirts. What’s the difference? There is none. Our modern culture has somehow taken things that have never been acceptable, and were in fact appalling and offensive to those in previous centuries, and made it the trend for this day and age. Go back to Victorian times, Medieval times, etc., a gentleman would never enter into a company of ladies shirtless. In the same way that scantily clad women are a distraction to men, in most cases, shirtless guys are a distraction to young women. I would advice consideration be used in the way anyone dresses to keep the purity of the thoughts of those around you intact and so you aren’t inadvertently promoting temptation.
As a guy, I’m all about being modest, too. But it just seems like women don’t really lust after shirtless guys unless they’re unusually attractive. Not being unusually attractive, should I wear a shirt?
I think it has less to do with your level of attractiveness and more to do with respecting that which God has given you dominion over. If our bodies are the temple of the Lord, we should respect and value them. Not go around showing them off. Whether your goal is to get attention or not, you do get attention when you walk around shirtless. It isn’t always “lustful” attention, but it’s some kind of attention. And also, I don’t really get the point of walking around shirtless anyway. I mean, most guys wouldn’t walk out of a house without any pants on, but they don’t have a problem walking around without a shirt? And why would people go swimming in a public place wearing next to nothing, but refuse to walk around the streets in their underwear? (Not that I’m complaining about that last bit.) Anyway, I would say walking around without a shirt (whether you feel you’re attractive or not) is ill-advised. Especially if you’re the kind of person who expects girls to maintain a standard of modesty. But that’s just my personal opinion.
OK I was wondering how does that all fit in with :
1. What is “modest” in somewhere like Kenya or some other climates & cultures where their dress code is “a little less covering”?
2. What is appropriate dress, i.e. what is offensive to them, that is “modest” for us?
3. How do we share the Gospel without imposing our Cultural expectations on
them but still be “modest” or sending any inappropriate messages to our
back home culture?
I’m just curious to how we can ad-dress these cultural standards of “modesty”
Good questions! I’ve wondered this myself.
I’m not sure there’s a good answer to that. For example as you said, “modest” is different there. In my opinion, part of modesty is trying not to draw attention to yourself by your dress.
But it’s not just coincidence that Paul never defined what modesty looked like (beyond no braided hair or jewelry). Modesty can be different depending on your culture.
Yeah, the more I read these discussions, it’s the definition of “modesty” that is most confusing… cause it is very culturally based as to what is and isn’t “modest” in this use of the word.
I tend to agree with your opinion, “…part of modesty is trying not to
draw attention to yourself by your dress…”
As I understand what Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:9 “Modest apparel” as not referring to neck to ankle cover up, but in a manner unsuitable to their Rank or station in life, (in other words not appearing richer or more important than their husbands job/social position etc). When “with decency and propriety” are immediately following “Modest apparel” I think it is referring to the opposite of pride & snobbery not lust or display of flesh. Like when a ordinary tribal woman tries to dress up as the chiefs wife, she is dressing above her rank. Does that make sense?
I agree. I’ve been thinking about this topic a lot the last two days, and it’s glaringly obvious that the closest Paul ever got to a definition of modesty is 1 Timothy 2:9, where braided hair and jewelry is condemned! So, I think in many ways we’ve skipped over what was truly meant by Paul when he wrote about modesty. Yep, makes sense!
Hey! Just have to jump in here because this is what my dad taught on in Sunday school a couple weeks ago. If you look at the verse you referenced, Paul says it should not consist of braided hair and jewelry. He didn’t say “don’t braid your hair or wear jewelry.”
If you want to discuss this I’d love to! I always come away from discussions like this with a new perspective 🙂
And forget about my last comment, I didn’t see the discussion leading up to this… I think we agree 🙂
Modesty has to be at least partly cultural and partly depends on the situation. I had this conversation with a friend a few weeks ago. I wear something different to the beach than I do to church. Or hiking. Or performing in a concert.
In different cultures, to some extent shouldn’t modesty depend on the culture? Modesty is a heart attitude of wanting to glorify God in my dress and respect my body for my future husband as well as my brothers in Christ by not tempting to sin. I’m not saying that them sinning is my responsibility, but you know what I mean. In a different culture where women never wear pants, it would probably not be modest for me to wear them. But if they all wear sleeveless dresses, sleeveless may be more acceptable for me to wear there than in my (very conservative) Baptist church at home. I don’ tknow if there’s a simple answer that can be given. It depends on how God leads you to dress in that certain culture, and which way you can glorify God and show Him the most to the people around you.
Living in an Muslim country, I’ve had problems with modesty. At pools and hotels seeing Muslim mother sitting on the side of a pool with only her eyes showing with her husband in the pool with swim trunks (or even a speedo) an kids in tiny suits it seems totally unfair. In fact, I don’t fully enjoy my time at beaches and pools because of this and also because I feel like I’m being mean wearing my swim suit while she’s in a long dress and a head covering.
Because of this, I think one view of guys being modest is a respect thing. If they expect us to be modest it seems hypocritical for them not to be. It’s like saying, “I can do what I want but you have to do what I think you should.” If you think of modesty as a respect thing to others and to God it makes it a lot more of a priority.
I live in a Muslim country too currently and I’ve noticed this as well. I tend to dress the same as I did at home (which was christian college standards of modesty), but often when I’m out I’ll notice the double standard of modesty here–women will be completely covered except for their eyes and men will be going around in sleevless shirts and shorts or whatever. And I’ve thought the same thing–that it’s not fair of them to say that the women have to dress and cover themselves a certain way, but they can do what they want. But I’ve thought that modesty in any culture has been a double standard against women. That if it is going to be fair, modesty needs to start applying to men as well.
This is a great question!
I think boys need to be modest in how they act around girls. They need to remember that girls have feelings (and girls do too!) and I think that they should be more reserved for the person they are going to marry.
These are my thoughts and I am a girl, so others thoughts may be different 🙂
Right on!!! Guys definitely need to be modest in their dress and their behavior or actions around girls. I totally agree with you!! “I think that they should be more reserved for the person they are going to marry.” I love that!!
😀 thanks!
You’re welcome!
me too 🙂
Also… If girls dress modestly it destroys the point of modesty if guys aren’t modest!
Excellent point!!
Guys Can definitely be Immodest! And I would agree with everyone that already commented saying that it is a heart problem. I guess that Girls are bothered by it on different levels, but really (and here I’ll refer to the classic Pool example) I would say that a guy should be fine not wearing a shirt around other guys, but if a girl was around personally I would think the guy should wear a shirt, and respect that there are different people who might be bothered by some things that others don’t mind at all. That probably didn’t make any sense as I just wrote as I was thinking, and didn’t have any order or structure, but such is the extent of my writing skill
It made sense, and it was very wise too:)
Absolutely guys should be modest too…it makes me stumble to see guys walking down the beach with their shirt off. I have to look away. Good question, Mary!
ABSOLUTELY!! Modesty apples to both men and women. Just like women shouldn’t walk around with no shirt on, men shouldn’t either. Yes, men are visual and women are more emotional, but even as a girl, I’m pretty visual myself and would appreciate it if guys were modest in their outward appearance. Bottom line: both men and women should be honoring God in what they wear. If we all do that there won’t be any problems, because we’re all glorifying God in what we wear!! Hope that helps!
I totally agree!
Off topic but: I LOVE your profile picture! It’s super cute. 🙂
Thanks!! 🙂
I would rather show respect than showing floppy muscles.
Amen!! There definitely are young men out there that seek to honor God in their relationships, by showing respect. Praise God for that!!!
I totally get where you’re coming from, I struggle with the same thing so here’s what I think. As Christians all of us are accountable to keep from putting extra temptations in each other’s way, so guys should be careful to. But your sin us your own, and you need to fight it with all you’ve got. It’s hard. But God is faithful and I’ll be praying for you.
I find it frustrating when boys say, “It’s important for girls to be modest,” but then walk around in baggy shorts with their underwear showing or in skimpy tank tops just to show off their muscular arms. If it’s reasonable for girls to save their bodies for marriage, then shouldn’t it be fair for guys to live up to the same standard? If girls can’t wear spaghetti straps, should guys wear bro tanks? I think we should set the same purity standards for everyone, regardless of gender.
Amen
Oh my gosh!! This is so true and I so agree. The same standards should be set for both genders:)
I definitely think it’s important for guys to be modest! I actually have a slightly different situation than most. I’m a guy, but I have a skin condition that necessitates that I wear a shirt while swimming (sunburns are very dangerous for me). I really don’t have a choice. That being said, I wouldn’t want to go shirtless anyway, as I find it to be pointless and unnecessary (unless you’re in a competition setting or whatever, of course). Unfortunately, I’ve found that guys seem to really forget that modesty is just as important for us as it is for girls! Guys tend to look down on me for wearing a shirt; my skin condition is the only excuse they allow! Seriously, I’ve had friends try to pressure me into going shirtless.
That really bothers me, to be honest. I believe that Christian guys should do everything we can to prevent being a stumbling block to our sisters, and should not place expectations on girls that we aren’t going to uphold ourselves. Am I saying no guys should ever go swimming shirtless? No, of course not. And if it’s all guys, I’m sure that’s fine. But at youth group lake parties and other such events with both genders present, guys really should take it more seriously than they do. I know from experience that being the only guy in a shirt is honestly really awkward. It’s like people think I’m hiding some disgusting disease or something!
Seriously guys, wearing a shirt to go swimming does not make you unmanly or weak, and it doesn’t indicate that you’re uncomfortable with your body or something. It means that you’re working to uphold a godly standard of modesty for yourself, and are attempting to avoid placing expectations on others that you aren’t living up to yourself.
Maybe we should make this a thing… #RealMenWearShirts
#RealMenWearShirts!!!!???!!!!? Dude that’s totally awesome! I am totally using that….
Thanks for sharing, btw! =)
#ISaidTotallyTwiceInOneComment
#IAmTotallyOverusingHashtags
#CommentingOnACommentOnMyComment
#CommentingOnACommentOnYourCommentOnMyComment or something I’m totally lost now. XD
#RealMenWearShirts #ShouldBeAHashtag #TooBadIDon’tDoTwitter!
Yes, you totally are. jk
Really enjoy this comment; thanks! #RealMenWearShirts 🙂
#RealMenWearShirts needs to be a trending thing, along with #GuitarWithArms 🙂 @GuitarwithArms:disqus
Its just a society I guess but you don’t need to be like everyone else. I agree with you. Being shirtless doesn’t make me any better than anybody or wearing shirt doesn’t make you a bad guy you know. That is not how God created us.
#RealMenWearShirts
Great input! #RealMenWearShirts
Hey, man, keeping your shirt’s on is fine! I’ve always swam with no shirt and sometimes run without one (although I’ve begun rethinking that no that I’ve seen all the girls on here say that’s not a good idea. It’s just hard to workout and run in 120 degree weather in TX), but that’s a personal decision. You’re dead right, wearing a shirt doesn’t have anything to do with how manly you are!
Personally, I’m okay with shirts when swimming but not when running. Here’s why:
1) If you are shirtless when swimming, most of your skin is usually underwater anyway so I don’t have to look at it. That’s different than when running.
2) When you run shirtless, think of all the girls out there suffering in their t-shirts who would rather wear an immodest stomach-showing crop top. My recommendation? Performance material tank tops. While I’m not a huge fan of tank tops either, they’re better than nothing and performance material like dri-fit really does help (it’s designed to cool your body while you work out).
I’m very familiar with running (I did track for two years and have done multiple 5K runs. #thestruggle) and I get your pain, and like you said, it really is a personal conviction. I hope my tips help give you a better view of the world of the female mind! 🙂
Although, do you think that modesty pertains to just clothing choices?
Certainly not! It has much more to do with your attitude and your actions. I was referring here specifically toward the attitude guys tend to have toward other guys. Specifically, toward guys who choose to, for example, wear a shirt while swimming. I was referring to the cultural mindset more than the specific clothing issue.
Thanks! And you are absolutely right. Sorry after posting, I read my comment and thought I sounded rude.
Don’t worry, I knew what you meant!
Oops, now I look like a conceited jerk, I accidentally up-voted my own post.
I do that ALL the time! So here’s another conceited jerk. (actually its my iPad-that-i-have-no-clue-how-to-use fault. 😛
=P I hate it when people do that….
Tut, tut, tut, Benjamin. Shame! 🙂
Just click the up-vote button again… it should un-do.
#firsttimegivingon-linetechadvice!usuallyIamtheoneasking!
Thanks! I’m a good Christian again! #I’mSuperHumble
haha i totally how you feel, my first week on here I accidently ended up doing that to almost every post of my own and then I’d freak out and try to erase it by down voting, then worry that it’d look like I have really low self estime, so i’d up vote and then… well you get the point =)
You say that in an all-guy environment guys would be fine swimming shirtless, but for some guys, like me, that would be a problem. Most guys aren’t attracted to other guys, so with a lot of groups it wouldn’t be a problem, but with some it could be. I can’t think of any solution, either, because not every guy is going to be comfortable admitting that he struggles with that, and asking another guy point blank about it is just plain awkward, whether you’re asking a guy to put a shirt on or asking him if it’s going to be a problem for you to swim shirtless.
It is true that this could potentially be an issue. I think overall though, it’s a mindset thing. Ideally guys wouldn’t see any need to go shirtless beyond practical reasons such as heat, and those reasons should only be accepted when in the proper environment. I think the root issue is that guys tend to connect shirtless-ness with manliness. It’s just the cultural mindset. I think if we help overcome that, then there would be much less of an issue.
Well I have a question for you, why do you find yourself attracted to guys?
That’s sort of the million dollar question. The simple answer is I don’t know. There’s a raging debate today, though, between the ‘born that way’ and the people who say you can just pray it away. And then there are the people in the middle like me. Personally, I don’t think it matters either way. Plenty of people are born with disabilities or other conditions that are the result of sin, and they have to trust God in spite of them. It’s also possible that something in my life brought this about, and I wouldn’t be the only one in that camp either.
Does that answer your question?
Great hashtag!
Ha, I love it!!! Especially the part about making it a thing . . .#RealMenWearShirts
I have some points, most of which I think have been said, but may be relevant:
1. Modesty is more than how you dress. Flirting, at least most types, is immodest as well.
2. Personally, I’m not sure if guys are that much more visual than girls. I know I am a pretty visual person, and I’m a girl. And if that’s true, why the Calvin Klein ads?
3. It’s true that wearing less revealing clothing could be embarrassing, but that isn’t a good reason to wear a bikini or a Speedo. It should cut both ways.
Just some random thoughts.
Don’t know if anyone else mentioned this, but a couple of years ago, Brett Harris wrote a good article about this exact topic, called “The Other Side of Modesty.”
Check it out:
http://therebelution.com/blog/2013/06/the-other-side-of-modesty/#.VVF65c4r2S0
For me, the answer to this question is a resounding “yes.” I’m a guy who’s attracted to other guys, and I think I’m just as visually stimulated as any other dude. Certainly there are differences between how men and women experience attraction, but for my situation it’s kind of irrelevant. Whether or not girls struggle with a guy being shirtless, I usually do. And, as some girls already said, it’s just plain distracting in the first place and doesn’t help me to respect their humanity or even just have a conversation with them.
on the subject of guys with no shirts. I really think it’s distracting. Now I rarely go swimming out on the beach because we have a pool and my dad doesn’t like having pool parties because he doesn’t want older guys ( I’m the oldest of 5 girls) in it just because it would be odd. But when I do go I feel embarrassed around them and don’t even look in their direction cause it in a way creeps me out. Though one guy from church went swimming without a shirt and it didn’t bother me at all. Now I know it’s different for different people but I really felt comfortable with him anyways ( like my brother). But I do find it very distracting when I see it most of the time. I also don’t agree with guys wearing their pants saggy. It is just gross and they do it for attention. But anyways I couldn’t help but put my 2 cents in.
My simplest answer to your question would be that yes, guys should be modest. No one should ever show off their body. Your body is made for your spouse to see and treasure. If guys or girls went around showing a ton of their skin to random people then everyone knows what they look like in places that should be kept sacred. Everything precious that they hold is scattered throughout the world. Once you get married there is really nothing special left to see because you’ve revealed it to the world. Does that make sense? :s
Modesty isn’t always an issue of the amount of fabric on your body. It’s how you act. You can be totally covered and still send out signals of “look at me, I’m totally awesome!” It’s very important to have the right attitude before you worry about clothing.
Now about guys being modest: They definitely need to be modest. Like everyone, they need to have a modest attitude. (actually I HATE the word “Modest” from here on out, I will not be using it) They need to focus on having an attitude that is Christlike.
Now about no shirts.
Honestly, it depends on your personal convictions and where you live. For example, some guys do go around shirtless, to attract attention, that is wrong. I live in the north, so we have very few unbearably hot days (for me unbearably hot is 85, anything after that i melt). But when we do, sometimes it’s the only comfortable thing to do.
When we went to Aruba a couple years ago, it was hot. Really, really hot. (yep, i melted) Because of how hot it was, I had to wear things that i normally wouldn’t, because most houses there don’t have AC. So my family did lax a bit on our rules. For comfort’s sake.
I’m not going to say that guys should or shouldn’t wear shirts. I’m saying, What’s your motive? Why are you doing what you’re doing?
Hope this helps even a bit!!
While I get where you’re coming from, I don’t believe I would compromise standards for comfort. We were in Arizona in February a while back and it hit a record high of 117 degrees one afternoon, but I didn’t go out walking in a bikini (not that I would be caught dead wearing one of those anyway.) I dressed just as I always do. Sure it was a little uncomfortable, but I know I would have been a lot more uncomfortable if I had compromised for physical comfort. Of course, heat doesn’t bother me that much so 117° was bearable. I don’t think any kind of physical comfort is worth compromising your personal standards and beliefs. I hope you don’t find my comment offensive, I was just stating my own views on the subject.
I didn’t mean to come across as compromising. I think I meant more of the gray areas that I just tend to stay away from because it could go either way.
I would never wear a bikini either! When we were in aruba, I just wore tank tops and shorts that are a little shorter than i usually would wear. And I NEVER wear short shorts (my mom wouldn’t let me out of my room) If it hit 117 (In February?? here it was below zero, perfect for me :P) I would just go live in the freezer. Thanks for your thoughts! I appreciate it!!
Yeah, I didn’t mean to sound as if I were accusing you of being compromising. Your families standards and convictions are your own business, so if I came across as judgemental, I sincerely apologize. That was not my intention.
No, you’re fine! I think maybe i should have checked over my comment too. Because it did sound kind of like that 😀 thanks for letting me know 🙂
Yes, I’m with you on that M….. word.
We seem to, as a culture, have such a focus on the frilly bits, we’re neglecting the basics. I’ve heard people use a phrase…”1ST WORLD PROBLEMS…” (not to trivialize our witness to the world by our actions, but to get back to the HEART OF THE GOSPEL -JESUS, to help us refocus on what is important)
How can we share the Gospel without imposing our relative Cultural expectations (esp. in different cultural settings like Kenya)?
” It’s very important to have the RIGHT ATTITUDE before you worry about clothing.” Focusing our study on His Word for Salvation helps us avoid relativism on matters not essential to our salvation.
I agree totally it’s “… having an attitude that is Christlike”
Well thought out comment Liana 🙂
May Jesus continue to be your source of wisdom.
Thanks so much! Appreciate your thoughts.
As basically everyone here seems to have agreed, I think that guys should definitely look to be modest. I think I’ve always believed this, but while listening to speeches on the importance of modesty in girls, I just sort of assumed that guys already knew it, and maybe that’s why they didn’t talk about it as much (a serious lack of thought on my part, I now realize). While I don’t find shirtless guys tempting, it does make me uncomfortable, and I tend to shy away and look away from him (though perhaps this is a natural reaction from being exposed to old TV shows when modest dressing was more common?). This has even happened with my dad and my brother. Going shirtless (or even skintight shirts) and sagging pants makes my brain flare with the warning: “Back away! Not safe.” I’m not sure why this happens, but I’m not entirely ungrateful for it.
Like it has also been mentioned in several of the other comments, I think it also depends largely on who is around. I have a friend who said she and her husband have talked at length about what she would be allowed to wear in certain situations, depending on whether or not the people around her would be believers or unbelievers. I wish I could remember how she put it, but basically she could wear tank tops and things like that around unbelievers, who were more accustomed to seeing girls dress skimpily. However, Christian guys might be, and maybe even ARE, more prone to stumbling, especially if they grew up in the church. I think it’s the same thing when it’s the other way around. Girls who grow up in church aren’t used to seeing their male acquaintances strip their shirt off for swimming or a friendly game of ultimate football, and so that might cause them to stumble even if non-believing girls mayn’t. So I think that it’s VERY important for both genders to be aware of their modesty when they’re around Christian brothers and sisters, because we’re called to unity, and how can we stay unified if we’re constantly causing each other to stumble?
I’ve commented a lot on this question, (mostly to disagree with people’s statements…😜) but I saw your comment and again thought of how so many people have double standards, especially where modesty is concerned. I don’t believe it’s acceptable to dress one way around Christians, and another way around non-believers. The Bible tells us we are to be set apart. In this world, but not of it. If you look and act just like the rest of the world, that isn’t what I would consider living a set apart life. The world looks at you and thinks, what’s the difference? The “Christians” look and act just like the rest of us, so who’s to say they’re any better? Why would us being like the world make the world think we have things right and they don’t? The way we dress should not only reflect an inward modesty, it should set us apart and make all the non-believers wonder what it is that makes us different. Not just how we act, but how we dress. If we dress one way with our church friends and an entirely different way with non-believers, does that not make us out to be hypocrites? That’s what turns off most non-believers. Christians living a life that reeks of hypocrisy. You can’t look and act one way with some people and a different way with others. Consistency in this area is one major tool in living a life set apart and arousing curiosity in non-believers around you. You establish your standards and stick to them. No matter what.
I’m not trying to say that you should disregard modesty completely when you’re around non-believers–you should always have that modest mindset regardless of who you’re with. I’m just saying that wearing something like a tank top or short shorts, to me, is fine to wear outside the church, but I wouldn’t wear them to youth group or church events out of respect for my brothers’ thoughts.
Should you not have an equal respect for the thoughts of unbelievers? In the same way that you would not wish to be a stumbling block to your brothers in Christ, should you also have a desire not to be a stumbling block to other males who come into your vicinity?
Yes, I have respect for their opinions as well, but what I’m trying to say is that they’re more used to seeing girls, like at their school or whatever, dressing less modestly than the guys at youth group are, so since the unbelievers are more used to seeing girls dressing immodestly, they might not be as prone to stumbling because of it. I’m not saying I would wear a two-piece swimsuit or spaghetti straps–there are certain standards of modesty that I have set and wouldn’t break in any situation, and they’re standards that I would expect other Christian girls to have as well. I agree that you SHOULD set standards and stick to them, but I don’t think that your standards should be, like, “I can’t wear a tank top ever in case I cause guys to stumble.” I just think that sometimes it depends a lot on your situation and who’s around you.
How is it okay to show more skin around unbelieving guys? Because it’s okay if they lust? Because Christian guys have never seen a woman in a bikini before?
Hey, a friend saw this and asked me to share a link to an article on his blog – you should check it out: http://christopher164.weebly.c… =)
I’ve read the article, and I agree with it. I was merely pointing out some things that the author of the comment I was replying to seemed to misunderstand about girls. I’m sorry if what I said came across offensive.
No, you’re totally fine! I wouldn’t have said anything, but @christopher164:disqus asked me to share that post of his. =)
I fear I’m to blame for that… I’m his sister.
I see your point that even if they’re more used to it, that doesn’t mean they’re immune to it. I actually kind of go out of my way NOT to draw attention, because I’m quite introverted. I hate short shorts, so I’m not going to wear them anywhere haha. And I only wear tank tops if I’m playing sports and it’s hot out, but I’ve been wearing vests at all times since I was 11 so I don’t think I’m drawing much attention.
This might be a bit confusing, and you might be asking, “Well, why are you arguing this point if it doesn’t even apply to you?” I think that I’m thinking more in terms of, like, if I had a daughter, what would I want her to be wearing? And I had to remember that a lot of girls like to dress a tad fancier than I do (since the only thing I ever wear is a t-shirt, my vest, and either jeans or knee-length shorts), and if I had a daughter that preferred dressing better than me, what would I have to think about when setting the standards of modesty for her?
I have enjoyed our conversation though. It has been most interesting. 🙂
I concur! Thanks for humoring me. I love people who can provide me with an interesting argument. Sure my brothers argue with me, but not about anything of value. 😜 Just kidding. But I think if I have daughters I would want them to have the same convictions about dressing modestly as I do. I admit while I do dress better than most (I generally avoid t-shirts) due to the fact that the way I act and dress out in public reflects back onto my family and our ministry, whether I had as much exposure in the public eye as I do right now, I would dress modestly regardless. (I’m not saying you shouldn’t wear t-shirts either. That came out wrong…😉 I meant because I find myself in more…formal situations in polite company more often than the average teenager I shy away from them.) But since I plan on having ten boys and one girl, (don’t ask.😛) I figure I won’t have to deal with that issue for a while. Haha.
Abby, I was just wondering if you mind to share how old you are? The only reason I am asking is because you absolutely AMAZED me with your comments regarding this subject:) And I thought it would be cool to know how old you are:) If you don`t feel comfortable sharing, I totally understand, thanks!!
What did Adam & Eve do about clothing?
Gen 2:25 “The man and his wife were both naked,
and they felt no shame.”
But then…
Genesis 3:7 “Then the eyes of both were opened,
and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made
themselves loincloths.”
…sin opened their eyes to evil & THEY were
ashamed because of their nakedness.
So what I understand is
that, being naked was declared to be evil by man, not God.
“Clothes came in with
sin. Little reason have we to be proud of our clothes, which are but the badges
of our shame.” Mtt Hnry
However, after God comes into the garden, He also makes clothing
for them.
Again, I think this is
Not because God had issue with their minimal covering or garment making skills,
but because Adam, even though he had already made a covering, still wanted to
hide from God. (it can be easy for us to do the
same)
God, wanting to be with
Adam, provided the covering for them, so that their nakedness would not be an
issue that would keep them apart.
I’m not saying we walk
around in that non covered state, but we have to be careful to not put a
cultural importance on something God has not explicitly
decreed.
Maybe the focus should
be…- Matthew 6:25-34 “Do not worry
about …what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body
more important than clothes?… For the pagans run after all these things…BUT
SEEK FIRST HIS KINGDOM AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, …”
I know this doesn’t directly answer your Q
on “Modesty equality” But I believe His Kingdom is more about seeking & saving the lost & this
is something we as disciples of Christ, should equally ad-dress
I agree that we should focus on seeking and saving the lost, but… If we dress and act like the world (i.e. minimal clothing) who’s gonna want to get saved? I mean, who wants to be like someone who’s just like them? And, I believe Adam and Eve were naked in the Garden because they had no sin, they were pure and holy, and because of their sinlessness they weren’t immodest, but, when they sinned, their nakedness became immodest in the eyes of God because they were no longer pure, they were flawed and unholy. Also, modesty is not just about the way we dress but the way we act. In fact, modesty has more to do with “propriety in… speech and actions” (Webster’s Dictionary) And you say God has not explicitly decreed modesty, is that in reference to both males and females, or just males? Because, God has, in fact explicitly decreed modesty to at least females (I’m not sure about males, but I’ll look it up). See 1 Tim. 2:9-10 and I’ll put up some more verses later…
Yes Adam & Eve were perfect because God had made them that way, but then their disobedience separated them from Him & they tried to cover themselves, when asked by God, “where are you?”. God did not turn His back on them, it was they that hid from God. Adam’s reply was that he was naked and so he hid (even with his self made fig leaf garment). Adam had declared that being naked was bad and wrong. Adam did his best to separate himself from his nakedness by creating clothes. (didn’t work he was still ashamed) it took God (who was seeking him in the Garden) to cover Adam that Adam felt covered enough to face God.
“…And you say God has not explicitly decreed modesty…” (Not my
words) Depends on your definition of Relative Cultural Expectations of “modesty”
I totally agree “modesty has more to do with “propriety in… speech and actions”
But where I live the dress-code is far different to the Eskimos, but it is also far different to the African Himba People or Sudanese
tribes.
I understand what Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:9 “Modest apparel” as not referring to neck to ankle cover up, but in a manner unsuitable to their Rank or station in life, (in other words not appearing richer or more important than their husbands job/social position etc). When “with decency and propriety” are immediately following “Modest apparel” I think it is referring to the opposite
of pride & snobbery not lust or display of flesh. An example is like when an ordinary tribal woman tries to dress up as the chief’s wife, she is dressing above her rank.
I do agree, we don’t need to dress as the world does, but we can’t hide away from it either (“…in the world not of it…” etc)
I tend to agree with @Taylor B. “…part of modesty is trying not to draw attention to yourself by your dress…”
& @Liana Grace “Modesty isn’t always an issue of the amount of fabric on your body. It’s how you act. You can be totally covered and still send out signals of “look at me, I’m totally awesome!” It’s very important to have the right attitude before you worry about clothing.”
….& this is for Male & Female 🙂
Essentially I believe we are looking at the same thing modest ATTITUDE but not looking from the same angle?
Heckles Yeah! Modesty is for everyone… male and female.
Should modesty be limited to just physical appearace? What about bragging or exaggerating? Yeah that’s probably getting more into humility but don’t modesty and humility go hand in hand? I think their like sister words or something.
Your thoughts?
I agree Marissa! Actually “modesty” used to be used synonymously with humility. It’s more being modest/not showing off what we’ve got. For girls I think it’s more our bodies, for guys it’s more about how they act.
You said that well!
It could go both ways for both genders. Attitude and appearance for women and Attitude and appearance for men. I don’t know if it’s a problem where you are but guys here LOVE to wear their pants below their butts. I don’t know why. They look incredibly stupid. But that and shirtlessness could be filed under Appearance. And girls can be extremely catty and mean and judgemental with their tongues which definitely goes in the Attitude category. As a girl, I know that’s the truth. So it can go both ways. Maybe as Christians striving to be modest we shouldn’t limit modesty to just “no one wants to see your boobs”
Yes, guys with low pants are rampant here on the East Coast. Bleck!
Sorry, posted too early. Yes, I agree that we have attitude problems, too. And modesty goes so far beyond what we wear, I totally agree!
I think that honestly being female we are in a difficult place. It is stumbling for me when a guy goes shirtless! But how I respond personally is that we mention it but don’t over-talk-about-it. I think that for us females it is just like when Peter was talking to Jesus in John.21
Basically Jesus was telling Peter how he was going to die and Peter caught sight of John and said “Lord what of Him?” Jeus answered and said “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.”
In the same way God does not call us to tell others to follow Him (He is totally capable of that) But He calls us to follow Him regardless of those around us. But there is also the “Speck in your brothers eye” thing in that we are called to say something. So I think that after we have made our heart pure before God then we can mention our struggle (In Love) to the men and then we have done our part! After that it is up to God to change their hearts which will ultimately change our actions!
As a guy. We should be modest. God made us his temple. We shouldn’t leave a temptation for people to defile it.
Hi Selah, I don’t think Joseph saw your comment, and I’m his sister, so I think I’ll clarify for you 🙂
Joseph has five sisters, ages 13 to 29. (Yeah, big family). Somehow, we girls have never had trouble with immodestly dressed guys distracting us/causing us to lust. When I found people talking about this on here, it was a first for me. I wondered what they were talking about, because none of us have had to deal with that. I mean, I knew that it was a problem for guys, but I had more trouble with liking nice guys, than with lusting after a shirtless guy. Anyway, he was going off of his experience, which evidently was lacking. Thanks to you and a couple of others who answered him, he knows that this is a problem for some girls.
And he does understand how we want a guy to want us, and what you were saying in the second-to-last paragraph. 🙂
I just thought I’d jump in because it looks like Joe didn’t see what you had to say.
Well, if it’s you & your sisters, I think it could just be genetics.
Yeh, could be… Idk.
I think this is a GREAT subject.:) and one that should really be talked about more often. Because I understand that us as girls, can tempt young men into sinning. But why are they not held responsible for being able to do the same to us?
I think that guys should think about being modest. However, just because they “should” doesn’t mean they will. Society places the most shame and pressure on girls who dress or act immodestly, so guys don’t have the same attitude towards what they wear because they haven’t been “taught” the same lesson about it by society.
I think it’s true vise versa too. It’s like “Modesty is a girl’s issue.” “Lust is a guy’s issue.” It’s just not true. Both deal with both. Guys aren’t monsters, and girls aren’t seductresses. We’re all in the process of sanctification.
So I shared the “Other Side of Modesty” article from here on facebook and got some kind of negative backlash (that makes it sound harsh – it wasn’t). One guy said “well, we can’t exactly wear shirts in the pool, lol” (to which I mentioned rash guards). And when I kind of make fun of my brother being shirtless (“more than we want to see!”), he pokes back, but makes it clear he thinks it’s fine (“I’m a guy”). Is anyone else getting less than encouraging responses from guys? Maybe they just don’t understand how girls struggle, too (which would make sense). Girls, I think we should be more open about this!
Well if we women have to wear shirts in pools (those of us who prefer not to wear swimsuits) then I think the guys can too. I wear shorts and a nice thick t-shirt when I go to the pool cause I can not find a swimsuit anywhere that covers my blessed figure and doesnt break the bank to buy it. It’s not that hard guys. Just wear a t-shirt. Lol… 🙂
My body is the temple of God, I should therefore look after it. Yes, by all means us men should be modest. If at all possible please refrain from wearing tank tops or going shirtless(I have two sisters and have heard them talk before) Also, keep your pants up, no one ever wants to see your underwear. A guy with sagging pants and a shirt that shows his six pack is not someone I would want to be marrying my sisters, and therefore I should look at myself in the same light
yep totally agree 🙂
I see that most people here agree that there should be modesty going both ways, for guys and girls. I think that the thing that guys should be careful of is “showing off” their masculinity. I find nothing wrong with having muscles, but if you have ripped arms you shouldn’t be wearing tank tops all the time just to show others how ripped your arms are. Someone posted earlier that modesty and humility go hand in hand and I totally agree. When considering whether something is modest or not, you have to ask the question of, “Is this humble, or am I trying to accentuate my body?” I think that this can go both ways for guys and girls.
You’re just jealous you don’t have ripped arms
I completely agree, guys need to be modest too. For example a bunch of boys come to my youthgroup, and I know it really distracts me when they’re wearing a tight shirt or something.
I think the whole modesty thing is way too legalistic at times. I mean, it’s fine if my friend (we’ll call her Sarah) wants to dress REALLY modestly, like not an ounce of cleavage, but I get mad when ‘Sarah’ forces that onto me. I’m a curvy girl and so I can’t be too picky with clothing or I won’t have anything to wear. But among the small pool of clothing I have to choose from, I try to be as loving to guys as I can when picking it out.
Essentially, I personally don’t think that wearing a midi-length skirt or a shirt with a slight v-neck is wrong for me. Do I think it’s wrong when other friends of mine like Sarah choose to be extremely conscientious about it? No! I believe that Sarah is following her conscience and convictions from the Holy Spirit. What frustrates me is when Sarah tries to force that onto me, because the Lord will convict me if I’m doing anything wrong.
Also, sometimes my brothers freak out if a TINY bit of cleavage shows, and with my body type, unless I’m wearing a turtleneck or otherwise extremely high top, you’re going to see a tiny bit. It’s the way God made me (I am fearfully and wonderfully made) and yes, I do have to be careful about what I wear. But it does mean that everyone’s going to have a bit of grace since I literally would have a VERY limited wardrobe if I based every single shirt or dress off of if I was showing any cleavage.
In short, I think both genders are called to be modest. However, I believe that unless someone is being scandalously immodest, we’re called to be convicted by God, not our friends. I do think that input from parents is very important!
Hope that didn’t sound bad…this topic sounded interesting to me so I decided to comment. God bless y’all!