rebelling against low expectations
HALEY WRITES: I recently had a relative commit suicide. He was a strong believer. I know he’s in heaven. But how could something so unbearable (the depression that he was experiencing), which led to something even worse (suicide), be a part of God’s plan for him?
This man, despite his faith, despite his wisdom, despite his love for his God, was overcome by hopelessness for his life. Is that a sin? Is depression evil? How could depression and suicide be a part of God’s “good” plan?
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rebelling against low expectations
Wow. I won’t pretend to know God’s plan or how he works, but I’ll just say what I’m thinking.
James tells us that we will go through trials and temptations, and from what I’m hearing, it was a trial. I’m sure that God’s perfect plan did not call for suicide, but God also gave us free will. I’m really wondering why he committed suicide if he was a strong believer, but these personal things are things that are none of my business. Please don’t get mad at me or anything, these were just my rambling and unorganized thoughts.
I’m sorry, but I disagree with you. God’s perfect plan had suicide in it, and therefore it called for it. That said, I do believe that it is a sin to commit suicide (self-murder).
So murder is part of God’s plan?
Everything that happens is a part of God’s plan. Otherwise, how could we trust Him?
When I say God’s plan, I mean things he intended to happen. There a a difference between what God wanted to happen (his Plan) and what he knew would happen (results of our free choice). For example, God didn’t create Adam to be successfully tempted by the snake, but he knew that it would happen. The Bible says that God does not tempt us, so using my definition, Adam’s temptation was not part of God’s plan. But this doesn’t mean we can’t trust him. Just like Jesus came to save us after Adam sinned, God is still protecting and is in control.
Hmmmm, I’m not sure if I agree with that but I see where you’re coming from. You should read my reply to T. Because I don’t want to retype it haha 🙂
I don’t know if I agree with it either, what if God had more for your future and destiny, I think that what God wanted to happen is ( his plan ). but couldn’t we stray from that plan, isn’t that how we mess our lives up and be on the devils plan.
Well, you have to be careful when saying that because if we can mess up God’s plan, doesn’t that mean He’s not in ultimate control?
Hmmm, this is weird. I didn’t post this. I think someone else in my family did.
Don’t be too harsh on them 😉
🙂
Just copy-paste 😉
Haha I know I just felt like it might be annoying to everyone else reading through comments 😉
But yeah that probably would’ve been the best option
AGREED!!! I think we have the same belief, you just put it into words much better than I do!
I believe that God would have been cruel to let us have free will unless it was in his purpose. If He knew we were going to make the wrong choices and sin, why would He have given us free will unless the end result of our free will would be better than the end result of us not having free will.
Here’s a quote I heard somewhere that I think applies. God knew, “a redeemed world would be better than a world that never fell.”
Yeah, I think our misunderstanding comes from differing definitions of His plan. I’ve said this like three times now in similar ways, so sorry to everyone reading through the comments — but I define God’s plan as everything that happens; past, present, and future; because even the bad things that happen stem from God’s decision to give us free will, which was indisputably part of His plan. (Also because He knows everything that will ever happen, but I think that’s been thoroughly covered already :))
Well, how can we trust someone who might make us die? Would you trust your mom or dad if you thought it might be there plan to kill you at any moment? I know that is a really strong statement, but think about it. The Bible does say God is our Father.
It’s hard. I haven’t really posted my life for the last 3 years, but let’s leave it at: If God wasn’t in control, I probably would have committed suicide long ago. How can we trust God when he might make us die? “Though he slay me, yet I will hope in him.” Job 13:15. That is the response we must learn to give.
Valid point, Audrey 🙂 when I said “how could you trust God if everything isn’t part of His plan”, what I meant was how can you believe in a God who tells us He is sovereign, but is not really in control of everything? When I say ” God’s plan ” I mean His plan for our lives, and for the world – including what He allowed, not necessarily caused.
God has a purpose in everything we do, but saying that sin is a part of God’s plan is like saying that God made us sin….If that is true, if he MADE us sin, how then could we trust him? We can trust Him because he allowed us free will…It’s up to us whether we make a wrong choice or not.
Hey Megan! I’m just going to copy what I already wrote, because I’m tired of rephrasing the same thing over and over lol: “I think most of our disagreement comes from our differing definitions of God’s plan, like @Joseph M pointed out below [above for you :)]. However, because God knows everything that will happen, is happening, and has happened, and because it WAS part of His plan to allow us free will, I choose to define God’s plan as everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen, including that which stems from God’s decision to allow us free will.”
yes.
I don’t think murder or suicide are exactly a “part of God’s plan”…God doesn’t want us to sin. God isn’t the master of sin, therefore he didn’t cause us to sin. Saying that sin is a “part of God’s plan” is like saying God made us sin!! No he didn’t!! He has given us the free will to make our own choices, right or wrong. However, he uses the wrong choices we make for a purpose and he could prevent them from happening if He wanted to. But instead, he allows us the choice: to sin or not to sin. Either way, he has a purpose in allowing us to sin…But it’s not his “plan” .
I don’t think I was clear in my stating that… @disqus_jSFJXHVZ9u:disqus pointed out the distinction between God’s plan and God’s will. I’m saying that it’s in God’s plan, but not His will. Is that clearer? I think God’s plan is the course of history no matter what happens. I think God’s will is for everyone to do the right thing at all times. Does that make sense?
Yes that makes sense! =)
Yes! Much clearer. I couldn’t think of the word, but God’s will is what I meant. Will as in what is ideal, and plan as in what actually happens. So everything is cleared up.
Kind of what I was getting at with the different kinds of will.
Your stupid and ignorant. What or Who makes you the expert on sin, depression and God. Even God himself/herself or whoever is God said, and I paraphrase, “My ways are NOTyour ways, My thoughts are NOT your thoughts”. Anthony Mastrandrea
What or Who makes you the expert on God’s Plan and what qualifies as sin which you think Depression and Suicide are? Even God said, and I paraphrase, “My thoughts, My mind are NOT your thoughts and are NOT your mind”. Anthiny Mastrandrea
John Piper talks about God’s different kinds of will: His will of decree and His will of command (I think).
Basically, His will of decree is what He says in the Bible. When we sin we are violating His will of decree, so in that way suicide would not be a part of God’s plan.
On the other hand, His will of command is what actually happens. Because God is in control (command), nothing can violate his will of command. Nothing happens that He does not expect or plan in one sense.
I hope this is helpful.
You have no idea
Thanks Anthony! If there’s anything else I can do, just let me know.
Your very stupid and ignorant if you belive depression and/or suicide are a sin. My God does not think they are.PS. Do you have Depression or are you a doctor and when did God whisper in your ear that depression and/or suicide were sins? Anthony Mastrandrea
Suicide is a sin. It’s taking a life and therefore, murder. Just because you’re taking your own life does not make it any better, because if it were okay to hurt oneself, self harm and tobacco would be perfectly harm.
Joseph M. you’re right; though I mean no arrogance or disrespect towards even him, I’m sorry to say, but as you’ve told Mr. Anthony Mastrandrea almost last month, deliberate suicide is a sin [as indirectly [Exodus 20:13/Acts 16:27-28], if not directly, the Bible warns us]; it’s taking a life & therefore, murder & assassination (because the LORD God made all humans in His own image & likeness)! Just because you take your own life never makes it better because if it were okay to hurt oneself, maybe self-harm & tobacco would’ve perfectly been harm!
Well now, if this man’s last act was suicide, that’s murder, so you can’t really know if he went to heaven if the last thing he did was commit murder. =/
“And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.” Note that that says “for those who love God” and “those who are called according to his purpose”. So for those who DON’T love God, well “The Lord tests the righteous,
but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.” and “The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers.”
Sorry, I know I’m probably being a party pooper here. =P
Hey, Josh! Ordinarily, I would just skim on by the comments, but I know you kinda well and I know you well enough to know you won’t be offended if I disagree with you! 🙂
If a person is a believer, every sin of theirs is paid for, including suicide. So God’s grace applies to every sin, whether it be a person’s first action or his last action. So I don’t think there’s good reason to doubt a man’s salvation by his final action. God’s grace doesn’t stop short a minute before a man dies. It covers his sin from the beginning to the end!
Taylor I was agree with you! “for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” – Romans 10:13
Ok, so my last comment was negative. =P Here’s my positive thoughts:
Think about Job. He went through horrible loss, beyond just about anything we could comprehend. Why? Well, other than testing Him, God doesn’t really make that clear in the Bible.
My grandmother has suffered from Meniere’s disease ever since my mom was a girl. Sometimes, it leaves her bedridden or “house-ridden” for days. She has horrible dizzy spells, making it to where she can barely walk. And she’s a firm believer who would much rather be teaching Bible studies than lying around the house being bedridden. Why is God doing this to her? I have no idea.
Sometimes, we just can’t know why God puts us through what he puts us through. We just have to trust that He’s working everything for our good if we love Him. =))))
Illness and death is of Satan. Jesus paid for our healing and deliverance at the cross. “By His Stripes we were healed.” Isaiah 53:5b. We have to step out in faith and receive the gift.
Which means accepting the fact that God knows better than we do: His ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
Amen!
But just because we have stepped out in faith doesn’t mean we’ll immediately be better. That is up to God.
Ok….but that doesn’t mean that Christians will never get sick, or that sickness is somehow sinful. And I have scripture to back that up. 😉
You’re right, Audrey French; although yes, at times, several of even the LORD’s children might get sick & it may never always necessarily be because they[like His most faithful man Job, for example] sinned at all,
I wish I could double up-vote this. I’m so sorry about your grandma. My dad and mom and both of my sisters have Lyme Disease, and my oldest sister is very sick and bedridden for the most part because of it. She’s been this way for 3 years, but I still have to trust that God has a plan for her and for her sickness. Already much good has come out of her sickness.
Our family has been able to raise awareness for Lyme Disease and spread the word about it which we wouldn’t have been able to do if she and the rest of our family hadn’t gotten it.
Praying for your grandma!
Aww, thanks! Yeah, I took the Lyme disease challenge! And I know that everyone keeps your sister in their prayers! =)
Thanks to all who do 🙂 She is on the road to recovery no matter how long that road might be.
This reminds me of when a grandmotherly friend of my family (?) passed on. She was a crazy strong believer, and an AMAZING evangelizer (evangelist?). As she got older she became weaker, until one day she was no more. At her funeral, there were so many people that told stories about how she had taken them to the cross, believed, and passed the gospel-message onward. I thought to myself; “How in the world could God have taken her when she still had so much to give? Is a small miracle too much to ask for a God-fearing woman like her?”. And then I realized, I am not God, I don´t know what´s best, I am not intrinsically good.
God is.
I don´t know the future, but God does. He gives us the choice of His love and the option to refuse it. As a non-depressive person with depressive friends I think depression is not evil unless we allow it to take control of our lives. In my mind it´s like temptation, it does not lead us to evil unless we choose to wallow in it. It IS our choice. God´s will is “good and acceptable and perfect” (Rom 12.2), and for those “who love God all things work together for good” (Rom. 8.28). I´m sorry for your loss, and I pray that God will reveal answers to your heart as you seek Him.
“I think depression is not evil unless we allow it to take control of our lives.” Totally agree! Heck, I was mildly depressed earlier today (I’m fine now =P). It’s not the depression, it’s what you do with the depression….for example taking it to God in prayer? great response! Sulking in your room playing Angry Birds to get your depression out of your mind? Not a good response! 😉
I think depression seems to be an ambiguous word….everyone’s definition of depression is different! See, if you were mildly depressed today and are already fine, I would venture to guess it wasn’t something very serious (I could TOTALLY be wrong though!!)…..then you have all these other stories of girls who were raped and then go into depression, a guy who’s girlfriend broke up with him, the person who’s relative died, the person who simply sees no worth in their life, etc.. So it makes it difficult to discern: when is depression a sin?? And I definitely think (as you seem to also) that there are times it is…I’m just trying to figure out if there are times it isn’t… I mean, what was the basis of your depression today? (I’m not necessarily asking you to answer)…Oftentimes the basis of depression is sinful or negative…so also determining why we are depressed and whether or not we take action against our depression would also help determine if it’s a sin or not… YOu are taking action by praying through that depression! *high five!* that’s the proper action to take!!! But what I’m still trying to process is this: if (like you have) we notice our depression right away, take it to God is prayer, and don’t let it consume us, was it ever a sin??? i don’t know…..
I figured out that I was pretty much just depressed ’cause I was super tired. =P I mean, I’d say if you linger in depression and don’t take it to God in prayer, then that’s sin. But I don’t know. =)
I would disagree that it’s a choice to wallow in depression. It’s a serious mental illness that needs external help to overcome, whether from God or from a doctor. While suicide is wrong, I don’t understand how depression, even when it is severe, in and of itself is sinful. Is it a sin to not be happy?
I think that she means wallowing in depression without trying to get it to go away. I think that’s what’s bad.
Okay, that makes sense.
I’ve been given a LOT to think about through this discussion, so I don’t have all the answers here, but one thing I do know is this: God created us. God has a purpose in creating us. God has a purpose (even if what happened/what we did was wrong) for everything that happens in our lives…Depression is a sign that we question those things. Think about it, most of the time the root of someone’s depression is even more deeply rooted in lacking trust in God’s sovereignty! The feelings of “I don’t want to life” “I’m a horrible person” etc, also show a lack of gratefulness to God for creating us and a contentment with who we are…So yes, I think depression CAN be a sin…but the part I’m still praying, thinking, studying through is: is depression ALWAYS a sin??
I’ve always seen depression as an attack from the devil.
The attack of the devil which you call the cause of depression is really a chemical imbance in the brain. Do you think chemical imbalances is a good definition of the devil?
Okay…. I know this thread is old… but I’m here anyway. Looking back, I cannot back down from my point — that depression can be an attack of the devil. I’m not saying it always is, but I think that it can be caused by Satan, just like how he can use other physical conditions to attack us, like he did with Job in the Bible. If he could destroy Job’s health like that, it’s not a stretch to say that he can be a cause of depression. I don’t claim to be an expert on depression, but I do believe that Satan does try to harm us physically.
Joseph, It was not Satan that caused Job a man who always acted in a manner very pleasing to God to suffer tremendously and in many different ways. It was God who caused Job to suffer so God could prove his point and his debate with Satan. I do not understand why God permitted this to happen nor the suffering that has been in my life. I do not call myself better or even equal to Job in how great a person he was but I am definitely not the worse person in the world either. My only theory about this is we mere mortals as God has said himself/herself or whoever God is, “Our minds do not think the same way as God thinks.”Therefore it is impossible for humans to understand some of the things God permits or makes happen. Sincerely, Anthony Mastrandrea
I’m not sure I can agree with the point that God caused to suffer, because by that logic, God permitting Satan to tempt us would equate to God tempting us, and the Bible makes it clear that God does not tempt anyone (James 1:13 “When tempted, no one should say, ‘God is tempting me.’ For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;”). However, God does allow Satan to tempt us, just as he allowed Satan to harm Job, in order to test us and help us grow (James 1:3 “because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance.”). I view depression in a similar way, as just another one of the trials that God permits Satan to put us through.
Joseph, your very intelligent and thanks for responding to me. However I do disagree with you. Satan asked God to pick a person who Gid had blessed materially,personnally, and in every possible way i.e. children, a pretty wife etc. etc. to see if this man highly blessed by God and who tried to thank God for his kindness to him by being a very goid man living a life very pleasing to God, if this same man(Job) would still be such a nice guy, a guy still loving God and stil living a life that God would consider to be a good life, if God took all of Job’s great blessings away from him(Job). So the contract between God and Satan was pretty unilateral or one sided..It was God’s respinsibility to pick the right person and it was God’s resonsibility
That is a valid point. Not everyone has to go through the same sufferings. However, the point I made earlier is still valid. Satan is still capable of tempting us and attacking us both physically and emotionally, especially since the word is under the control of Satan (1 John 5:19 ” We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.”) That is not to say that he is the ultimate power, but it does mean that we shouldn’t be surprised if we see his work or if we are attacked.
In addition, since we are all tempted at some point or another and since the temptation cannot come from God (as I brought up earlier, James 1:13), the temptation’s source must be Satan (or our sinful desire, which originally was brought into the world by Satan’s influence in the first place). If God is allowing Satan to tempt us, it’s also very possible that God allows Satan to put us through physical trials.
in the end, all I’m saying is that this is a very plausible possibility. I don’t believe that depression is always a result of Satan’s work, but I do believe that it does happen sometimes. I also don’t claim to know when it is Satan’s work, for, as you’ve brought up, God’s ways are higher than my ways. I don’t know when depression is a result of God allowing Satan to test us.
I think we need to make a distinction between two distinct kinds of depression: that which is caused by a mental disorder, and that which is brought upon oneself voluntarily. I don’t think we can say that something involuntary is a sin. If one is trying to get out of depression as hard as they can, but still struggle with feelings of worthlessness, I don’t think they’re sinning. I don’t think depression is ever a sin, in that sense. But if someone chooses to dwell on the negative in everything, gets themselves depressed, and refuses to try to get out, that is wrong. The depression itself is not the sin, it’s the refusal to even try to get out. Also, there’s the depression that people refer to that’s temporary, which I don’t think is depression at all. It’s just a bad mood.
You definitely have a point there!! Hmmm….*pondering all of these thoughts*…
You know nothing about depression. To know what is you must either have it like I do or be a doctor. Otherwise please shut up.
How many years in medical school did you study depression to be such a expert on it?
It’s been a year since I made that comment and I can’t say that I would even agree with myself a year ago. Today, I would not characterize a self-inflicted pattern of negative thoughts as depression. I never claimed to fully understand depression. Neither did I intend to insult people like you who try, but are unable to get out of their depression.
Karl thanks four reply. Thanks for admitting you do not pretend to admitting your not knowing what depression. There are far too many stupid/ignorant people who pretend they do. Only those with the problem and doctors really know what it is. Now my compliments to end. Depression is not as you say is selk influcted. It is a chemical imbalance in the brain. Would you say that those who have lupus for example self inflicted luus upon themselves or is it only those with depression because they enjoy masochism?
In my previous comment, I attempted to clarify, but let me try further. I don’t remember why I originally said that depression can sometimes be self-inflicted. While I do think that people can give themselves some pretty bad habits through constant negative thinking, that doesn’t make it depression.
Like Karl said, I commented on this a year ago and I would have to go back reading everything I wrote to really remember what I even said and whether or not I agree with what I said!
I have never been to medical school and do not pretend to be an expert on depression.
I have also never experienced deep depression.
All I shall say on the topic is that God in His rich mercy can pull us out of a place of depression when oftentimes we can’t. If we allow ourselves to wallow in the depression without working to overcome the issue then I doubt God is pleased. If we are struggling and actively working to overcome the struggle and leaning on God for help, I don’t dare to say He is displeased with us.
I, as you pointed out, am no expert here and I won’t pretend to be.
I’m sorry if I have offended you, that was never my intent. Please forgive me.
I don’t appreciate the insults you directed at me in your other comment, but I understand that I have offended you and I do apologize.
I’ll be praying for you Anthony.
Your forgiven. Hope you accept forgiveness from those with Depression. Anthony Mastrandrea
I apologize if you felt some of my comments hurt your feelings. But I stand by the thoughts I expressed that perhaps could have been translated more polutely. Anthony Mastrandrea
You are entirely wrong. Do you have depression or are you a doctor. If not what makes you a expert on depression. Depression is a physical problem in the brain just like a cancer tunor. It is a chemical imbalance. It cannot be anymore self induced by the way you think than trying to wish away a cancer tumor.
Sorry I haven´t responded, I didn´t see your comment until well … now. I agree that depression in and of itself is not sinful; it´s an emotion, a response to situations that arise in the world around us. The issue arises when depression becomes an idol for us. Struggling with sadness is nothing to be ashamed of. Jesus taught us what to do (as usual, by example), when He experienced mental agony He went and prayed to the Father on Mount Olive, and received comfort. Jesus didn´t sin by being human and having emotions (otherwise you and I would not be saved). Being unhappy is not a sin, but focusing on our own personal idol and being blind to Who beauty is most definitely not the fullness of life God sent His Son to die for. God is master over our lives, but if depression becomes master, then we cannot serve God as well. We have to choose.
I’m not sure anyone “chooses” to wallow in it; because it is so emotionally & energy draining to combat depression, one may feel utterly helpless. Depression (IMO) is a vicious attack on one’s vitality – one’s energy to sustain life. Standard everyday living can already be a struggle; being marginally functional is a tremendous accomplishment for most of us that ‘live’ with this debilitating disorder…
Simple. It’s not.
How could depression and suicide be a part of God’s “good” plan?
They’re not. Depression and suicide are not part of God’s plan. It’s important to remember that while God has a good and perfect plan, He created humans with free-will. If He used His power to stop bad things from happening, free-will would no longer exist.
I know it’s hard to accept that bad things are a part of a good plan. It really doesn’t seem like that’s possible, does it? But the Bible clearly says that EVERYTHING is a part of God’s good plan. Even if it doesn’t seem good from a human point of view, and even if it comes from sin, God is perfect and we must trust that His plan is good. A God that is always good cannot make a plan that is only sometimes good. A God that is sovereign cannot NOT be in control. Free will is a hard concept, but in the end, God did know everything before it happened, and it was all a part of His plan.
Love from your sister in Christ, Leah 🙂
AMEN!!
Leah, you said that “Even if it doesn’t seem good from a human point of view, and even if it comes from sin” Sin is one of the main things that separates us from God, so how can any good come from it?
Lol. That was the very quote that stood out to me. I think what Leah meant is that us humans have a very temporal mindset. We think about the present and forget about the big picture. In terms of sin being a part of God’s plan, without sin God could not show that He is merciful in the same way and He could also not show that He is just. I think we as humans have a misconception of good. Good is anything that glorifies God. If evil in the end glorifies God, light, and *good* then even if it hurts right now we can trust that God is using it.
For example, Cori-ten-Boom would have no inspiring, life-changing story to change with the world if she hadn’t been sent to a concentration camp. God would not have been able to be glorified through her in the same way if there had not been enormous evil in her life.
God works through our sin to make us more like Jesus. He refines us through fire.
OH!! I think I get it now, thank you!!
God can make our experiences from sin turn out well, in a way that wouldn’t have happened had we not sinned. We DO NOT need sin. But in a sinful world, experiences with sin make us realize our dependence on God, and help us to minister effectively to the lost. Does that make sense? I think it might be a little confusing I didn’t explain very well I’m afraid 😛
I see what you mean 🙂 Thanks!
I guess I should also add that it’s not the sin that makes the good; it’s God and God alone.
Amen!!
But if God is perfect and has a good and perfect plan why would He let us have free-will when He knows it will ruin us? I think in everything that happens God has to be in control in some way to make sure everything works to fulfill His will.
So are saying people with depression are responsible for being in that condition. Does the same apply to babies born with diabetes? Is it also their fault?
Agreed. It is simply not in his plan. God alone has the authority to end human life and if man ever does that himself ( such as murder, abortion, euthanasia, OR suicide) it is wrong. The bible says that murderers will not inherit the kindom of heaven…… but ultimately it is up to God .
God says that anyone who asks forgiveness for their sin and believes in Jesus will go to heaven. I believe that applies to everyone, no matter what sins they’ve committed.
Severe depression is awful. I don’t claim to have any experience, but when you are truly mentally ill, taking it to God in prayer might be a good first step. But if God doesn’t choose to take the illness away, you can’t really put the blame 100% on the guy who commits suicide. Yes, suicide is wrong, and no, it’s not in God’s plan. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t a believer. Mental illness skews your perspective on life, and changes the way you think about things, including death. Though the last thing he did was murder, it wasn’t done with a right mind if he had depression. I feel like often people with depression aren’t taken seriously. People just assume that depression is something that you can deal with by yourself, that it’s a choice to be depressed. It’s not, and I think we all need to be more compassionate towards those with depression and suicidal thoughts. Less of “God has the authority to take away lives” (though that is true) and more “this is why you are important and need to stay alive”. We need to care for the person with love and care, not by saying “you are wrong”.
Your right on. Wish others on this post were as smart as you. I am one of those you speak of I have the worse kind of Depression called Treatment Resident Major Depression. I am not suicidal but the pain is enormous and there is stopping it. I am not curable. Lastly by all legal definitions Suicide is NOT murder.
I think there are two forms of depression–the kind of ordinary depression that everyone sinks into occasionally, and the medical one that some people need to take medication for. In this case, it seems like it’s medical.
That’s why I disagree that being depressed, in your case, is a choice. Sometimes it’s just how your brain works.
I take your word for it: I’m sure your relative was a strong believer. And we all slide into sin; it’s just that some sins have more severe consequences than others, and in this case murder ended your relative’s life. I don’t want to detract from the devastation of your loss, and I don’t want to detract from the sobriety of the situation.
Thank you for your post; it pushed me out of my comfort zone.
I would like to add there is depression caused by Satanic influences that are trying to take people down.
I agree Audrey, some of it is Satanic, it’s more like oppression.
Wrong, Depression is a physical problem in the brain just like a cancer tunor is a physical object.
Suicide by almost references is not defined as murder. You also know nothing about how bad as you say medical depression is and medications do not help many people with depressio . For many there is no cure. How do you like that?
Haley, I’m sorry about your loss. If we can be an encouragement in any way, let us know!
I think your question boils down to why is there evil in this world if God controls all. That might be thread hijacking, so I won’t go there right now (unless people tell me to). Let me know if you think that would be appropriate to discuss here.
Danny, I think that a lot of people went ahead and answered that question. I am not necessarily confused about the difference between God’s will and God’s plan, which is what a lot of people took my question as. It is wonderfully to be reminded of this difference, but my question was really asking where depression fell in that difference. God’s will, or God’s plan. I have really gotten a clearer perspective on that. I think that the wording of my question wasn’t exactly right to clearly ask this, but nonetheless I have gotten a much better understanding of depression and suicide and where it falls in God’s eyes.
Speaking as a person who has struggled with severe depression and suicidal thoughts, and who has lived with a mentally ill family member who is making his way to recovery. I would say that to an extent, depression is a choice, we can choose to wallow in it or we can take it to God and seek help from family or friends who are godly. I was once told that maybe I should go to a doctor for my depression, but ultimately I’ll say that the Lord is my doctor, and He is the doctor of my family member who was very ill mentally and did terrible things because of it. It’s how we choose to handle our hopelessness, we can hold onto the Father or we can let go.
Please know that I’m not heartless when it comes to your family member’s suicide Haley, I truly am sorry and I’ll be praying for you.
I agree with T. Suicide and depression aren’t apart of the God’s “good” plan. It is something that came into the world with sin. I guess because we live in a fallen world, these things happen. And I can imagine it is hard now, but God can use this situation for good! If it’s not good, God’s not done! Here is an article which I think is really good and can articulate better than I can!
https://newspring.cc/articles/why-do-bad-things-happen-to-good-people
And I am so sorry for your loss Haley! Will be praying for peace and comfort! 🙂
I’m so sorry for your loss, Hayley. That must be so hard. I’ve come close to losing multiple friends to suicide, and I can’t imagine how difficult it would’ve been if they’d succeeded. Praying for you girl.
But as for the question, a lot of people are saying that suicide isn’t a part of God’s good plan. I’m just going to repost what I said to T.: I know it’s hard to accept that bad things are a part of a good plan. It really doesn’t seem like that’s possible, does it? But the Bible clearly says that EVERYTHING is a part of God’s good plan. Even if it doesn’t seem like a good plan from a human point of view, and even if it comes from sin, God is perfect and we must trust that His plan is good. A God that is always good cannot make a plan that is only sometimes good. A God that is sovereign cannot NOT be in control. Free will is a hard concept, but in the end, God did know everything before it happened, and it was all a part of His plan.
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.
Proverbs 19:21
We have our own plans and our ideas of what is good, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.
But the purpose of the Lord is not always what he wants to happen. That’s the entire Gospel message; that God came to save us because he didn’t want us separated from him.
I think the problem here is that we have separate definitions for “God’s plan.” When I say God’s plan, I mean things God caused, such as Jesus coming or the parting of the Red Sea, but not things that God allows. I’m not talking about things that God knows and allows the devil to do. It makes a huge difference which definition you use.
Okay, I understand. I need to think that over… I’m not sure what to think. I’ll get back to you 🙂
Sorry it’s been a while Joseph! I’ve been soooo busy, I haven’t had time to get back to this in a while. I do think the problem comes from our differences in defining God’s plan. I define it as EVERYTHING that happens, because God knew it would, and allowed it. If God did not know everything that did happen, is happening, and will happen, then I’d say that His plan only contained what He had ordained as right and good. But because it was part of God’s plan to give us free will, I think that what happened as effects of that should also be included in how I define God’s plan.
No problem! Other people have explained the distinction very well, especially calling them God’s will and God’s plan. Will for the things that directly come from God and plan for everything under his control, which is everything.
Yes, I have been impressed by all the thought-provoking comments on this question! How blessed we are to have such a respectful, knowledgeable group of believers at our fingertips 😉
Leah, I think you may be misunderstanding scripture a little bit. Death and evil are definitely not a part of God’s plan.
John 10:10 “The thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and they may have it more abundantly.”
God wants everyone to have life abundant! Unfortunately we let Satan in. and because God gave us free will, He can’t force His good plans for us.
Jeremiah 29:11 “For I know the plans I have for you,” says the Lord, “Plans to prosper you, and not to harm you, plans to give you a future and a hope.”
Saying that everything that has ever happened is a part of God’s plan goes totally contrary to the Word of God and His character. The holocaust, abortion, homosexuality are no where in God’s plan, but they happen because humans give Satan power.
Now, God can use what Satan meant for bad and use it for good!
@josephmao:disqus has a good point. God said in Ps. 121:3-4 that “The God who watches over Israel will never slumber nor sleep.” That means that when God is watching over his believers, “not a hair of your head can fall to the ground but He knows of it.” I think then that God foreordained whatsoever comes to pass. Again, I don’t pretend to know the answers to everything, but God doesn’t want everyone to have eternal life in heaven. Jesus did not die for “the world”, he died for “whosoever believes in Him.”
I strongly disagree with your statement that saying that everything that has happened is a part of God’s plan goes contrary to his nature. Why? Read the Bible and tell me one place where it says “God was surprised.” or “and the Lord said, This one caught me by surprise.” You won’t find it! Why? Look at Job 2. Even Satan has to come get permission to do ANYTHING to Job.
Your last sentence is the whole point. Satan means everything for bad, but God WILL somehow use it for good. How? I don’t know, but He will. God says in Rom 8:28 God works out all things for the good of those who love him. That doesn’t mean for everyone, but for “those that love him.” That is our great assurance, nothing is out of God’s control, and He has no Plan B for our lives. Therefore whatever happens is part of His plan, and will bring out some good in our lives. After all, sometimes God dims our earthly lights to make his glory shine the brighter.
Agreed!!! It ISN’T God’s plan, but because God gives us free will, we make the decision to sin…But God WILL use it for His will…and God won’t let it happen if he won’t use it for good!
God knows what will happen before it does, but that doesn’t mean He WANTED it to happen. Jesus came to give life, and life more abundant!
I’m confused… can you please elaborate a little more what you are getting at?
Hi, Audrey French! Last year, you were right when you said that the LORD God, Most High knows what will happen before it does; but as biblically, you said, that doesn’t mean He WANTED it to happen! Yes, also, His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ of Glory came to give us humans life that we’d have more abundantly (as well as joy everlasting)! Hallelujah! It’s because at Calvary’s Cross, He defeated the devil & will cast him & other fallen angels into the eternal lake of fire! Again, it’s because although the devil is bad & wicked, contrastly, wonderfully, the LORD God Almighty is good & gracious all of the time!
Audrey, I totally agree that God can use for good what Satan means for bad. Just like with Job, God allowed bad things to happen to him and used it for good, Job was blessed even more than he was before after he stayed faithful to God in the midst of hardship. Sometimes God allows hardship in His plan for us to grow us more spiritually and to come closer to Him. I’ve learned that sometimes, it’s only in the hardship that we get certain opportunities to experience things with God that we couldn’t if it weren’t for pain. So we have to have pain for true growth. God knows His plan for us, it will involve pain, His plan is still at work during the pain too.
I think we agree that God allows trials and sin to happen. I agree with you on the fact that God does not want us to choose sin. And I think most of our disagreement comes from our differing definitions of God’s plan, like @Joseph M pointed out below. However, because God knows everything that will happen, is happening, and has happened, and because it WAS part of His plan to allow us free will, I choose to define God’s plan as everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen, including that which stems from God’s decision to allow us free will.
Hi, Audrey French! Like you told Leah 2 years ago, I have to agree with you that she may misunderstood Holy Scripture a little bit because while I mean no misjudgment towards even Christians who may disagree with me or some of even my biblical views, still, definitely death & evil are no part of our Heavenly Father’s perfect plan! In fact, St. John 10:10 quotes that our Lord Jesus Christ tells us, His true disciples: “The thief comes only to steal, kill, & destroy; I have come to grant them life that they may have it more abundantly!”
Yes, the LORD God, Most High wants everybody to have life abundant [& joy everlasting]! However, unfortunately,[Heaven forbid!], we let Satan in; & the LORD God Almighty of Heaven can’t force His good plans for us humans because He gave us free will!
Again, according to Jeremiah 29:11, the LORD tells us: “For I know the thoughts[plans] that I think toward you, which are thoughts of peace & not evil, & to give you a future & hope.”
Yes, despite the true fact that His purposes to punish & conquer evil, wickedness, sin, fallen angels, & unrepentant human sinners are His purification plan to restore everlasting righteousness on earth & destroy iniquity & transgression permanently, still, like you said in truth, to say that everything that has ever happened is a part of the LORD’s perfect & merciful plan totally goes contrary to His Holy Word & character; the Holocaust, abortion, & homosexuality are nowhere in the LORD’s perfect will & plan (despite His reluctant allowing these evil acts to exist on earth for now); but they happen because like in the Garden of Eden & Tower of Babel(in Shinar where obviously, righteous Noah’s arrogant & pagan “great-grandson” Nimrod schemes as “king” & “dictator” to trap & manipulate humanity against & outsmart his Creator through failed attempts to reach Heaven with a high tower), like the 1st Adam, humans gave the devil power!
People here keep talking with so much stupidity. First, People with Depression do not have free will. There minds do not function at all or if they do they cannot function properly. Most legal sysyems in the world accept mental incompetency as valid grounds to find people innocent of any wrongdoing. I think since God knows more about depression than the best doctors on earth God would be even more lenient for the depressed who commit suicide.
Haley, last year around this time I was in shoes that are almost identical to yours. One of the biggest pieces of advice I could give to you is don’t let the stress and anxiety take you over. Keep your eyes on Jesus and you can keep walking even through this storm. One other thing, avoid stress eating; I can say from experience it doesn’t help anything and you have to deal with the long term effects. 🙂
Depression was not a part of God’s plan. God had amazing plans for your relative. (Jeremiah 29:11) As Christians, however, we don’t always follow God’s plans. Satan attacks us and we get deceived.
Part of God’s plan? A lot of people are talking about whether suicide is part of God’s plan or not. I can understand where all of you are coming from. God never intended this world to have evil, but he gave us free will, so the world does have evil in it. He doesn’t create evil, but when it happens he can use it for his glory. Perhaps someone will be impacted by hearing about your relative’s life. Perhaps someone will see this awful thing and be convicted about helping people with depression. Perhaps people reading all the comments on here will learn something new.
Several years ago, some non-Christian friends we’d just started getting to know were surprised and devastated when their dad committed suicide. When they faced the aftermath, including finding a new place to live and finances, the only help they had was from Christians. I don’t know if that had an impact on them or not, but maybe God used it.
There also seems to be a bit of discussion about depression itself. As someone with no experience whatsoever, I thought this Rebelution article might be interesting for anyone else who hasn’t experienced it http://therebelution.com/blog/2014/08/i-have-depression/#.VbHuCfl1SPc
What makes you think you know whats God’s Plan is? What makes you know God considers suicide a sin. God himself/herself even stated and this a paraphrase but 100% is God’s decision on people like you who think they can speak for God, “Man’s ways are NOT my ways”Man’s ways of thinking are NOT my ways of thinking”. I guess you must think your God. I don’t think you are. I don’t think you know aanything in about anything. Anthony Mastrandrea
Just a quick reminder that we can know parts of what God’s Plan are. He does speak to us, and parts of the Bible reveal what some of His plan is.
Anthony, you have made your position very clear throughout this thread. In fact, Disqus will probably flag you for spam soon since you insist on replying to everyone here.
In that case, I would kindly ask that you stop commenting – especially since your language is bordering on abusive.
You are interacting with teenagers and young people here and have acted in a consistently inappropriate manner.
I am warning you now and if you continue with this behavior, I will have no choice but to block you.
You will not hear from me again. However my decision has nothing to do with your warning. But did you ever hear of the First Amendment, now violating someone’s First Amendment’s rights is a very bad thing to do and thats my warning to you. Goodbye.
I’m sorry to say, but let’s just say that just because His ways are really higher than human ways doesn’t stop the divinely[not human] inspired truth that a. the LORD said: “Thou shalt do no murder!”; & b. although [maybe other than Acts 16:27-28 where forgivingly, His Apostle Paul urges the Philippian jailer to even do himself no harm either], the Bible may never address or forbid deliberate suicide, still, apparently, to purposely kill yourself falls into violation of the LORD’s 6th commandment against murder! Yes, you’re right that the LORD is Almighty God, not us; but though I care about & try to help (even depressed) people whenever I can, yet, still, I can’t use our Heavenly Father’s love for you, other humans, & me as an excuse to endorse or be an accomplice to anybody’s even attempted self-murder
Sorry for your loss, Haley. It’s a twisted world – that’s about all I can say.
Depression and suicide are very sad things. But they’re sad because they reflect something even sadder: the fact that we’ve all rejected the life God offered us at creation. Suicide may be a choice, but so is humanity’s choice to turn away from God. People who commit suicide may have done wrong, but so have we – and who are we to condemn them? God can use even the most wrong of human choices to accomplish His purposes, as we see Him doing throughout the Bible – including at Jesus’ crucifixion.
It’s tough. I really don’t know what else to say.
I haven’t read all the comments…but first, I want to tell you I truly am SORRY for your loss!!! That has to be incredibly tough on all of you!!!
As for it being God’s plan, here is what I want to say…..God doesn’t desire for us to sin! He never wanted us to sin!!!! That WASN’T his plan….BUT he gives us this thing called “free will”. Now, there are a lot of different beliefs regarding free will, so this may open up a can of worms here…but what I believe is that God is not a dictator. He doesn’t have us on a leash, detaining us from doing what we want. Instead, he gives us freedom to do what we want and desires for us to come to Him ourselves…To accept the truth that we are sinners and saved by His blood. He wants us to be obedient to Him of our own free will.
How does this play into your question? Well, some people say “If we have free will, then doesn’t that mean God isn’t in control?” No. No it does not. God won’t let something happen that He isn’t going to use for the better. But He will allow people to sin. He will allow hard things to come. But he uses all those things for his glory in one way or another…The sins of others can teach us lessons we need to learn!
So, did God WANT your relative to commit suicide? NO! But, He allowed your relative the free will to make that wrong choice….God wouldn’t have let it happen if there wasn’t some purpose in what happened. You may never know that ultimate purpose..you may…idk…But that’s the truth of it!
In answer to your other questions, when you say “is that a sin” are you referring to hopelessness in life, suicide, or depression? Either way, I’d say all of them are sins…The only time I would differ on that opinion would be in the instance that someone is feeling “hopeless in life” because they realize their need for a savior. Otherwise, I think it is a sin…All 3 of those things (again, I don’t know to which you were referring) imply that you are lacking trust in God for one thing or another….either for the length of your life, God sovereignty in creating you, GOd having a purpose for your life, etc….
But again, I want to say, even though these are all sins, God uses sin to teach us lessons….I went through a minor depression after something VERY difficult happened in my life…which happened around the time we were moving out of the country…I struggled with trusting God. Trusting that HE had a plan…But through those circumstances…through the sins of others and the sins of myself, and ultimately through the Lord, I have learned to trust God much more than ever before (I’m far from perfect though!) and I realized GOd’s plan is the best plan!!!
Hope this helps!! Again I”m SO sorry for your loss!
I wholeheartedly agree with the first part about God’s plan. I believe that God knows that evil will happen and uses it in his plan, but he didn’t want it so it wasn’t in his plan. Confusing, but it depends on how you’re using the phrase “God’s Plan.” I usually mean the second (God didn’t cause it because he can’t make murder happen).
But I don’t think depression is a sin, just li temptation isn’t a sin. It all boils down to how you respond.
I also agree with the first part of what your are saying Joesph! =D You’re right…he wasn’t “His plan” but he will use it for his plan….Absolutely agree thanks for pointing that out!!!
And I think depression can be a grey area in some ways as I think about it more…I think depression definitely CAN be a sin!!! I agree that our response reveals a lot about the sin in our depression. But I also think that response may not always be a physical response, but instead a response in our own minds…I have to agree with you that it may not ALWAYS be a sin…but I also wouldn’t say it’s NEVER a sin…I think also what is prompting that depression could define whether or not it’s a sin…But I think too, the sin in someone’s depression may only be able to be judged by GOd…idk…this is interesting to think about….Thanks for making me think Joseph!!!
Your a idiot if you think depression is a sin. Are people with diabetes sinners. What is the differance. The differeance is your not being a doctor or even just a intellugent person who obtain legitimate info on what depression before judging it. But maybe your IQ is too low to permit you to do that.
Whoops! I apologize – to you, Haylie, and anyone else that reads this. My big virtual mouth keeps getting me into trouble, and that’s something I need to work on. Thanks for pointing that out!
I’m so sorry for your loss, Hayley. I know that it’s so hard. I believe that how he was a believer, he is saved by Jesus! The Redemption has power to pay all sin, in the past and in the future. No matter what we do. If we are salved by Jesus, there are nothing that we can do to let us to the hell.
I’m praying for you!
Well said. The distinction between God’s will and God’s plan is important.
Hi Hayley, I just want to tell you that I am so sorry for your loss. I don’t know that I have a very good answer for your question, but I can and will be praying for you as you grieve the loss of your relative. I pray that you may find that the peace of God surpasses all understanding. I pray that you will find hope and comfort in God’s Word as you wrestle with these questions.
I am sorry for your loss Haley. It is a very hard thing to go through. What adds to that pain is not knowing why God let it happened. I do not know why it happened, the sad thing is that we may never know. I know that this doesn’t answer your question. I don’t think anyone has an answer to a question like this. Just keep praying for God to give you peace and hope. I am praying for you and your family.
I’m sorry, Haley. A friend of mine just found out that her father committed suicide. I don’t have a well constructed answer for you, but know that I am praying for you. May you find peace, fulfillment and provision despite what terrible things have happened. You must have loved him very much:) The Lord will give you strength when you are weary. Love ya, sister!
I read this article on gty.org website http://www.gty.org/resources/questions/QA143/can-one-who-commits-suicide-be-saved?
It gives a very biblical understanding of suicidal Christians. I hope this brings you comfort.
Jean
Does anyone know if it says anywhere in the Bible that depression is a sin?
As far as my answer to the original question, I don’t think suicide is a part of God’s DESIRED will. But then again, neither was sin in general. The fall, in and of itself, was bad. But even so, God created the great gift of grace to come out of it through Jesus. In the same way, God can somehow make good out of suicide. Again, even though suicide in and of itself is bad, God can make something good come out of it – what that is, how should we know? We’re not God. I hope this helps! P.S. This discussion reminds me of ” How can we have free will when God has a plan for our lives?”
I’m so sorry for your loss, Haley. Speaking as a severely depressed, suicidal Christian myself, I hope I can offer you a few insights.
In my experience, depression can absolutely be part of God’s plan:
1. If you read through the Old Testament prophets (Hosea is my favorite example), God put His people through intense and terrible trials for the sole purpose of bringing them back to Him. Depression has a way of stripping away everything else so all you have is God.
2. C.H. Spurgeon said, “It is good for me to have been afflicted, so that I might know how to speak a word in season to one who is weary.” Sometimes a person is afflicted with depression so that they can minister to others who also suffer from it.
3. Suffering from depression has actually improved my relationships. I was always a very independent person and didn’t like sharing – but talking to my boyfriend, friends, and church family about it has made me more open in general, which has
made my relationships closer and deeper. It’s also challenged my church family to reassess the way they avoid dealing with each others’ struggles. As much as I hate admitting I’m not perfect and asking them to try and support me, it’s made us all better people. And I’m sure it’s done similar things for others.
4. Sometimes it’s just a thorn in your side, something you’ll have to deal with for the rest of your life – maybe to build your faith, maybe for another reason only God knows.
But whatever the reason, I am 100% positive depression is not evil, and just as positive that God can use it for His own glory.
Suicide is another issue, I think. In my view, it’s tantamount to murder, and I do believe it is a sin. But sins can be forgiven, and I don’t think suicide will keep someone out of heaven. As much as I wish there wasn’t, there is sin in the world, and God gave us free will to make our own choices. I don’t think it is His plan per se for anyone to commit suicide, but He gives everyone the ability to make that choice for themselves. And nothing will ever derail His good plan.
As far as Christians being suicidal goes, I don’t think that’s a sin any more than being tempted is sinning. I believe that everyone has their own personal sin – some sin that they find themselves being frequently and/or severely tempted to commit. For some of us, it’s lying; for some of us, it’s suicide. And I think suicidal desires should be treated like any other temptation – recognized as a desire to sin and fled from as such.
I have heard the argument that people who are suicidal aren’t true Christians because true Christians have hope in Christ (Romans 5:2 is one verse that states that). But modern Christianity in general seems to have given up hope on this world and taught its followers that their goal is to focus on eternal destiny. That’s another topic altogether, but I can personally say that it’s very tempting to escape the depression, get out of this messed up world and all its sin and depravity, and just go to the perfect paradise of Heaven a few years early. I might almost say it’s more tempting for me than a non-believer because I know exactly where I’m going and I know it’s better than here.
That’s my perspective from personal experience. I hope that helps answer your question a little bit, Haley.
Thanks so much for sharing this.
Thank you so much for your input. I so agree.
Wow. Thank you for opening up and be willing to share this with us:) May He continue to bless and strengthen you!
VERY DISAPPOINTED IN YOU AS A FELLOW SUFFERER OF DEPRESSION BUT IT APPEARS UNLIKE MOST OF US OTHER DEPRESSED PEOPLE YOUR NOT ACTUALLY SUFFERING BUT IN A VERY STRANGE WAY ENJOYING YOUR DEPRESSION. DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS BUT TO EACH HIS OWN. BUT I DO WANT TO INFORM YOU THAT BY JUST ABOUT ANY REFERENCES YOU CAN DRAW ON SUICIDE BY DEFINITION IS NOT MURDER THERE IT DOES NOT BREAK GOD’S Commandment “Though shall not commit murder”. I hope you continue to enjoy your depression. Don’t want to see you become unhappy by being in good health.
Hi Haley. First off, I want to say that I really am sorry for your loss, and that I’ll be praying for you. Secondly, I wanted to say that God might have been ready for him to come home. I’ve heard about people who die so young, and who are so strong in their faith and have been doing so many good things. But God might have been ready for them to leave this Earth, and to go to heaven. I can’t say I understand as well as anyone here, but I know that this is something that makes sense to me. One of my good friends, a lady in her 40s, had a brother who died a few days after becoming a Christian. They had no clue where he was for a while, because they’d been on a trip when he died, but they trusted that God had called him and that he was with him. It’s hard when these things happen, and I hope that God will give you the wisdom and understanding you need.
Hey, don’t feel bad! I’ve had plenty of “big mouth” moments. Lots of memories there… 🙂
Wow, I have never thought about the ultimate cause of suicide being a lack of feeling God’s love. That’s why we have to depend on the truths in the Bible that says nothing can separate us from God’s love, even if we don’t FEEL loved. You are so right, and forgetting that God loves us is a trap we all fall into. Thank you Dr. F. You definitely brought up a point that nobody really has so far. We appreciate you giving your wisdom to all of us young people. 🙂
Thanks, Audrey! drF.
Love point #3.
OK, here we go.
Haley, I am so sorry. Losing a loved one by any means is awful. Thoughts and prayers are with you. Keep holding onto God.
I’ve never had depression (or at least not clinically diagnosed depression), so I can’t speak from experience. But as someone with a deep interest in psychology, and who has studied mental illness twice in the past two years, I’d like to say that no, clinical depression is not a sin. It is an illness. I can’t imagine Jesus condemning depression, schizophrenia or chronic panic attacks any more than He condemned chronic bleeding, lameness or blindness. That said, I think it is probably partly spiritual as well – Satan trying to beat us down. But no, it is not a sin.
Is suicide a sin? Honestly, I’m not sure. It is taking one’s life in one’s own hands. And I think I’d be inclined to agree with others who have said that it is a sin. But, as they have said, we all sin. There are no ‘super-sins,’ and none that cannot be forgiven. I believe, with you, that your relative is in Heaven.
Is it part of ‘God’s good plan?’ This is harder to answer. I can’t give a perfect answer. There are a few things I do know though. God is sovereign. He sees everything. We have free choice. God does not *want* depression and suicide and other awful things to happen, but because of the fallen state of us and our world, they do happen. Just because He *allows* them does not *necessitate* them. Just because He *allows* them does not mean He *causes* them. God will bring good out of this. I feel so harsh saying that, because I feel like it just brushes past the pain of it all. But please don’t hear that. I know it hurts. But God is still good.
You say depression is a medical problem but is also a sin. Are people with cancer,lupus, diabetes etc. Also sinners or only those with one very speficic medical problem, depression. This is not very logical thinking. Lastly if you want the full blast from God which are called the Ten Commandments. The only pertinent Commandment to this post is “Thou shall not commit murder”. By almost all possible references Suicide is NOT murder. Anthony Mastrandrea
You’re probably sick of hearing this, but i am sorry for your loss. I dont know about suicide specifically, but i do know how bad things can be part of God’s plan:
There was a little girl. Her mother was an alcoholic, and her father was a drug dealer. Her mother abandoned her, but her father tried his best to take care of her. A drug dealers house is no place for small children. All kinds of bad people are going in and out constantly. She was a victim of sexual and physical abuse.
She grew up, became a Christian, fell in love, and got married. Then, they discovered that they couldn’t have kids, so they decided to go into foster care. Their foster daughter hated God because of her past. The foster dad described it like this: “The kind… that makes you want to throw up and then go kill somebody.”
Because of what the foster mom wrnt through, she was able to sympathize with her daughter and relate to her. The foster daughter eventually became a christian, too.
What I’m trying to say is that we only see a tiny part of the big picture. God’s plan is much bigger than ours, and it affects way more people. What we need to do is trust that whatever is going on will eventually work out for good.
So sorry for you. Will be praying!
It’s a fact of life that bad things happen even to the best of people, and God is not at fault -neither is He the cause- for these bad things. But God can work good out of bad situations. We all sin. I don’t believe depression is a sin, but for Christians, we have hope even in the midst of the most trying circumstances and severe depression. Sometimes we just have to look past ourselves and look to God for that hope to be renewed. But when a life is taken, it’s easy to see only the bad in the situation and ask God why. For those who are earneslt seeking God in those situations, He may not reveal to them the “why”, but He does promise that He will always be there for us and He will work things out for the good of those that love Him. All the tests and trials in life are used to strengthen our faith, strengthen our testimony. So even when something bad happens, even though your uncle took his life, his life and death can be a foundation that lead others to Christ or strengthen the faith of believers, emboldening them to be more effective witnesses. God doesn’t want us to suffer in this life, but He knows that the suffering is necessary for us to be able to become the people He wants us to be. One of my favorite songs is Broken World by the Talleys. The chorus simply says:
This broken world is cradled by a Savior, and nothing here can take Him by surprise, someday all this hurting will be over, and every tear’s been wiped away and dried. For now, we’re living in a broken world, but not for long, no not for long.
Someday, all the struggles in life will be over, and it will be worth it all when we see Jesus. So take heart, God will work this out for good.
Ok, one quick thought I got while looking through the comments: there’s a difference between God’s plan and God’s will. To rephrase, there’s a difference between God’s will of decree and God’s will of desire.
God’s will of decree is what has been set in stone from the beginning of time (Isaiah 37:26). God’s will of decree contained suicide for this person.
God’s will of desire is what God wants you to do. God’s will of desire did not contain suicide, because suicide is murder. Make sense?
If you don’t quite get what I’m saying, instead of attacking my viewpoint, please read the book “Just Do Something” by Kevin DeYoung. It explains it infinitely better than I could. 😉
Yes! Thanks for re-saying this in a clearer way than any of us did. I hope this helps by keeping pointless arguments out. I say this because, for anyone new to this discussion, we had an entire discussion over a misunderstanding of which definition of God’s plan we were talking about.
You’re welcome! I saw part of it the other day and wanted to help try to clear things up. =)
You just explained what both I and @DannyLyn:disqus were trying to say the whole time.
Suicide is not legally murder. However if were possible to bring the dead back to life and prosecute them in a court of law for committing suicide and it would be possible to prosecute them for murder because the laws were changed making suicide now murder The defendant, would never be found guilty of murder or any other related crime on the basis of insanity which I would prefer instead of using the word insanity, Their not being in control of their mind and therefore not in control or responsible for any actions during any period of time they lacked what in legal terminology is called “Mental Capacity”. Anthony Mastrandrea
as someone who spent years suicidal, its not part of God’s plan. Depression is something we have or will all struggle with. It’s not a sin, its normal human emotion and reaction. Its what we do with it that makes it a sin. Suicide is when your mind basically is beyond working rationally and you really can’t think clearly about what you do. Often, people aren’t suicidal all the time and can actually enjoy and appreciate life but you can slip into a time when you are so low in yourself that you can’t think about anything but the bad. The only reason that ever kept me from ever going through with it, was the knowledge that suicide is wrong (and oh so sad) and I was afraid of what God would say to me. The only thing i can say, is that good can come out of the bad and God may have a bigger plan in this than we can see right now! Praying for you and your family!
Hey to Everyone:
I am so grateful to everyone that posted their thoughts and supporting scripture to answer my question. There are definitely many excellent answers and thoughts that really challenged me and made me think beyond what I have in the past.
Many of your answers really got into the difference between God’s will and God’s plan. While I have a pretty good understanding of that, it was excellent to be reminded of this. When I looked back at my question, (which was submitted a while ago), I think that I did not do a good job of asking clearly what I wanted to know.
I think that my real question was, in light of the difference between God’s will and God’s plan, where does depression/suicide fall? God is good, and there were many posts that answered that question as well.
One thing that I did want to address. There seemed to be some discussion and questions on whether the depression was clinical. I can answer that yes, he had untreated clinical depression. Just to clarify. I have dealt with non-clincal depression, and I think that that is a very different issue.
Thank you to everyone who sends their condolences. I am encouraged by all of your loving sympathy.
Also, to anyone who asked a specific question, I wasn’t ignoring you. I have been out of town for a week and didn’t even know my question was being published until today when I got home. I’ll try to answer any questions that I come across in the comments that I didn’t address in this comment.
Taking ones own life is firstly a criminal offence….being murder. Check out the laws in our country that is what it says about a person taking there own life. Secondly it is extremely dangerous for us to think we will go to heaven after committing this act. There is no human on this earth that we should entrust our eternity to for their opinions. a lady in our town recently told a group of public people that God told her that those that commit suicide go to heaven. Oh but how liable will she be on judgement day!!!! Where does it say in the scriptures that if we take our life we will go to heaven? On the contrary the bible says this in Revelation 21:8
“But
as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers,
the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion
will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the
second death.”
Please examine the laws in your country, they state that the act of suicide is homicide, murder. I say this not to be harsh but to give our society a huge shake because I hear preachers over the pulpit tell people that God forgives suicide?? Where does it say that I ask? And this is the question we all need to be asking “where is this written” because NOBODY on this earth should be trusted with a huge decision such as this one for my life and for yours. GOD has ordained our days and numbered them and we become as gods when we decide when and how we pull the plug.
Just to say that I have not read all the comments but would like to time given. Jesus’ method of dealing with mental problems was casting out devils. That is the truth, read it for yourselves in the gospels. Is it a sin to be depressed? No it is not a sin, but it is a sin when we do not live by faith.
Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
In saying the above I felt I was losing my mind not long after I became born again. During these bouts I felt my soul would be falling into a deep and dark abyss. Long story short I began to fast and pray. One time I fasted 5 days on water and prayed and sought the Lord to deliver me I was tormented. The Lord soon after delivered me. I went for prayer and the person had no idea what my needs were. The sooner the person put their hand on my forehead to begin to pray I fell back several feet and felt the Lord’s hand run tormenting spirits from my body from my feet through my body and out through my head. There were many and they were tormenting spirits. I stood up and felt the close presence of the Lord and a peace that I had never known before. I spent the whole week in close communion with the Lord and by the end of the week I realized that He had indeed delivered me. I have never had a bout of depression from that day to this day 26yrs later. Yes, I have days that don’t go right but I have joy and peace and an assurance that Jesus is ALL I need. I am in my right mind. In fact I was working with psychologists at the time and they told me I was the most stable person they had ever met. They were quite surprised at my background. My encouragement to everyone is fast and pray. Jesus lives! When we fast totally on food and only drink water He breaks the shackles of bondages and sets people free. Be free people, Jesus lives. It is time to get back to bible living.
Sarah, I’m interested in your point of view. It seems you’re saying that God does not forgive suicide. That doesn’t seem to be a Scriptural belief in my belief, because the Bible identifies the only unforgivable sin to be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:28-30), even promising that He will forgive all others.
If we truly believe that the grace and mercy of God covers my life after salvation, then EVERY sin is forgiven, past, present, and future. If God only forgave the sins I recognized and repented of, I would be in bad shape, because I sin very frequently in my thoughts and attitudes without even recognizing them as sin. But the Bible teaches that because of the cross, there is no condemnation for us, because Christ has born all our sin, including suicide (Rom. 8:1). If the person is a believer in Jesus, than their sin is forgiven.
If you read throughout the gospels you will find it makes statements like “and many disciples turned from following Jesus that day”. To promise to follow and to follow are entirely different things and these people wanted no forgiveness and no discipled life.
You add scripture verses that don’t prove to us that suicide is forgivable as if suicide is forgivable. If I were me, and if I were everyone else I would not listen to you nor anyone else that speaks that suicide is forgivable after the person is dead. The only scripture that I know of is in Revelation 21:8 says that murderers, the cowardly, the faithless……will not enter in. Suicide certainly contains the above 3. Being if you take your own life you are 99.9% doing it because you are a coward, faithless and you murdered yourself. And I am not being harsh, I am being a realist, because in reality there is NO documented evidence from God himself that a person who kills themselves because of cowardly unbelieving and selfish act is going to heaven.
Hey, Sarah! (I’m sorry, I feel odd calling someone older than me by their first name, but I’m not sure whether to call you Mrs. or Miss. I don’t mean it rudely! 🙂
Well, you dismissed all the verses I presented by saying that they don’t speak of suicide. I’m not arguing specifically suicide, because the word is never used in scripture. I’m trying to apply verses that speak of sin (which we both agree suicide is) to the issue.
I don’t mean to skip your whole argument, but I don’t have a ton of time and your last paragraph comes down to the gist of our argument. If God were a hard, rule-abiding judge, you’re perfectly right. Emphasize “just” over and over. Justice, justice, justice.
But if God were only just, you and I would be gone. We would be burning in fire right now, because you and I do not deserve mercy. Rather, God granted us mercy, adopted us, made us His children because He poured our His wrath on His Son. Justice meets grace. Without grace, there is no gospel, only Law. Pouring out His wrath against our sin onto an innocent Savior wasn’t justice, it was grace. Granting sinners righteousness despite their sin wasn’t justice, it was grace.
I’m one of the very few people I know who believe suicide is not a capital sin. I don’t believe this because people tell me so, it’s because I see this as a foundational point to a working understanding of the gospel.
What do you believe Jesus did on the cross? What does the atonement mean to you? Because if the atonement only covers the sins I’ve thought of and asked forgiveness for, I think we’re all in bad shape come judgment day. Please, ma’am, research 2 Cor. 5:21. That’s what our whole discussion comes down to. If Jesus Christ has made me righteous, despite my sin, then I am pure and forgiven. It’s not theoretical righteousness. It’s real righteousness, in every way that righteous is righteous. How would you explain that verse from your PoV?
Please know that there is not a spark of anger in my comments. What I’m writing here is only out of concern, concern that you are believing a lie about God, one that paints Him as only a hard-nosed judge rather than a merciful Father who stands ready to forgive; nay, even causing us to want forgiveness in order to forgive us! And His blood is quite sufficient for ALL my sin, not just what I have taken note of.
I’m reading a book called “The Good and Beautiful God: Falling in Love with the God Jesus Knows” There are a lot of harmful truths that we believe about God and one of them is that God is there to punish you when you are bad and bless you when you are good and as you put it a “hard nosed judge.” You can’t define God by one characteristic. He is merciful AND just at exactly the same time. Jesus has paid for every sin that I have done and will do.
Exactly! That, to me, is one of the most beautiful things about God. He is perfection, with justice and mercy, wrath and love, patience and jealousy, all bound together in a perfect balance that I can never replicate! And when we focus on one or the other characteristic, we miss the other and thus an important facet of God’s character!
Yeah! It’s just so amazing:) Being a Christian fills me with inexpressible joy.
I don’t know what country you live in.. But here in America attempting suicide is not a criminal offense.. A person who tried to commit suicide will be committed to a psychiatric hospital for evaluation.. But it won’t land them in jail facing criminal charges. Sorry it’s the truth.
Unbelief is a sin. We have to ask ourselves the hard questions, does God really mean all this? Or is it just a story? Rev. 21:8 “But
as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers,
the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion
will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the
second death.”
I am so sorry about this, Haley. I am praying for you and I know that God will give you grace to trust Him in His sovereignty.
I recently had a relative, who is also a strong believer, leave a suicide note and overdose on meds. Fortunately, God brought Him to his senses and didn’t let him get far. That said, I know exactly the questions and fears you might be having. It’s hard to trust God in things like this.
Yes, suicide is sin. (1 Cor. 3:17, 6:19-20) However, hopelessness isn’t sin, necessarily. It’s natural for us to become desperate at times. It’s really just what we do with that desperation that makes it either sin or simply a struggle; a test.
Your last question is so hard to answer. Romans 11:34 says, “For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?” We can’t know exactly what God’s plan is. Why did He allow this person to be overcome with depression? I don’t know. What we do know is that God works all things together for the GOOD of those who love Him and are called according to His Word.
I know this: This man is in heaven now, despite His sin (I mean, I have the ability to commit the same sin if not for the LORD’s grace in my life, so I have no reason to look down on him for his sin). God is powerful and gracious to forgive him of his self-murder. And that is good. And if, through this, you are challenged and are brought closer to Christ, that is also good. I also know that Jesus is not leaving you. Every situation like this is for our good and His glory.
Again, I’m so sorry and am praying for you to know the love of Christ which surpasses all knowledge. God is faithful.
My question for you Laura. You state that you know the man is in heaven. From where have you gotten this information? I am not being disrespectful by posing these questions but am very concerned that a large portion of North America has been deceived into thinking that we can take a life and go to heaven too! My question, and the question that ALL humans need to be asking is where is the evidence and the surety that one can take their life and go to heaven too? The fact is that once we step over the threshold from this life into eternity there is NO going back, and God will not change the rules for any of us. The word of the Lord endures forever, it is unchanging and is relevant throughout all of the ages of men. And every jot and tittle with come to fulfillment. We MUST trust God rather than the words of men. I beg you all please do not play Russian roulette with your eternity regardless what anyone says.
I understand your concern, Sarah. However, I believe that, as the gospel says, if one believes in Jesus, that He is the son of God, that He died for them and rose again, and asks Him into their heart with the understanding that they are a sinner undeserving of God’s perfection and grace, they will go to heaven. This is the gospel truth. And it is true for EVERYONE, no matter what sins they have committed. We can never say for sure that ANY given person is in heaven; that is between them and God. But, from Haley’s description of her uncle, we can be almost sure that he is with his saviour now.
The Bible shows that no sin (except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) is unforgivable. If we were held guilty because of our sins before God as saved individuals, I would be destined for h*ll. I sin and fall far short of perfection over and over again, as Paul speaks about in Rom. 7. But if we believe that I am still held guilty for sin even as a believer, what did Jesus die for?
You said very truly that “we MUST trust God rather than the words of men.” Trusting God involves trusting that my sin is paid for at the cross and that my condemnation is gone, as Paul teaches in Rom. 8:1. Rom. 5:20 is very clear that while sin may be very abundant in our lives, God’s grace abounds even more. That is where my trust is.
Killing oneself is murder. Once I murder myself there is no room for repentance and forgiveness of a willful sin. Jesus does not accept us into heaven regardless of the blatant and willful sins of disobedience that we have committed of our own choosing. Jesus blood covers us from all sin yes, the ones we do not understand that we have committed this does cover. But as soon as we know we are sinning we are choosing to rebel against God and we are no longer under grace at that moment but are judged and condemned by the law since we are fallen from grace. 🙂 It is difficult to understand this since there seems to be rampant teachings that regardless of what we do we are forgiven. Here are the scriptures on this issue. We are commanded not to sin, but if any man sins we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous who is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world. (can’t remember the scripture location at this moment), Here it states that also for the whole world the sins are paid for. Does that mean the whole world is going to heaven? Absolutely not, here it is very obvious the commandment is not to sin…….oops, but if you do hey you know where to GO to have forgiveness and to start with a fresh slate. The sins we know of we need cleansing from them. If I murder myself I am dead and there is no forgiving after we step over that threshold into eternity. We are unable to go to Jesus the High Priest.
1 John 3:
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He
who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy
the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
10 In
this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who
was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder
him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.
13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother[c] abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
See, what it comes down to is what Jesus accomplished on the cross. Am I saved once, upon my repentance from sin (generally), or am I saved many times, over and over, as I sin and confess, sin and confess, sin and confess, and we better hope we confessed since we sinned last or we’re no longer saved?
What do you believe Jesus did on the cross? 1 John 1:9, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all transgressions.” This doesn’t appear to be an endless cycle to me, but a once for all action. John doesn’t say “cleanse us from all transgressions, which you’ll want to repeat again as soon as you sin, because then you’re guilty again. Then when Jesus cleanses you that time, you better come back and ask again!”
I’m asking this not to come off rudely, but to honestly try to understand you. So you believe that if your last action was sin, you go to h*ll? If you’ve sinned since your last confession, you’re no longer God’s child, the grace of God is gone from your life, Christ has revoked His righteousness from you, and you go to h*ll?
In answer to the passage you quoted, yes, I believe that Scripture is completely true. No one who makes a regular occurrence of murder is a child of God. But, just like any other sin, Rom. 5:20 once again guarantees that God’s grace covers my sin once I am saved.
Rom. 8:1 is a verse I’m going to keep coming back to. Rom. 7 sums up the struggle between my flesh and my new nature that Christ has given me following my conversion, and Paul very openly and honestly answers that his sin nature falls. He does not always do what he knows is right.
But v. 1 opens up with the truth and beauty of the gospel, that there is mercy and grace over my sin, once for all. There is no condemnation, because the grace of God covers me. I am made righteous.
2 Cor. 5:21 establishes what I believe to me the most amazing concept in all Scripture. When I place my faith in Jesus, my sin is placed on Christ. All of it. Past present, and future, and His righteousness is placed on me.
Paul isn’t speaking of theoretical righteousness or poetical righteousness. We literally become the righteousness of God. He imparts His righteousness on us to make us perfect in the eyes of the Father, and He takes our sin on Himself to bare the penalty.
That’s grace. I am righteous (even though I sin) in the eyes of the Father through the righteousness and mercy of the Son. That’s the gospel!
Man’s first offense was a WILLFUL sin against God. You and I sin willfully DAILY.
So is Jesus not enough to cover willful sins? Is His blood not enough for us? Do we have to ADD something to His sacrifice for us?
Because if that’s true, I’m scared. If that’s true, none of us will ever be allowed into heaven. If that’s true, what kind of a God do we trust in?
I’m sorry, but there is always forgiveness
Because the bible says so right? Who wrote the bible? Not God
Forgiveness is for us earthlings, when we pass from this life to the next we go into the realm of judgement. If we deliberately kill ourselves we go into eternity because of a willful sin. The main point in all of this is that because none of us are God we are unable to give definitive counsel for anyone when they go out willfully disobeying the King. Eternity is a looooong time to pay. Better to let the King orchestrate our end. 🙂 Andrew the word of the Lord endures forever, the word is profitable for counsel and correction for all of life, and it is God breathed. Jesus quotes scripture to defeat Satan in the desert. Jesus quotes scripture all the time….read the gospels. Jesus has proved himself to me through his word in keeping all of his promises to me as it written in the word. Put it this way….. I don’t trust or believe any people, but I believe the holy scriptures they are man’s insurance for all of life and eternity. Try and test the scriptures yourself as God breathed, it is amazing!
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2 Peter 1:21
For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Genesis 2:7
Then the Lord God formed the man of dust
from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that theman of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
John 17:17
Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
Psalm 119:89
Forever, O Lord, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens.
Revelation 22:18
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.
John 10:35
If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—
2 Peter 3:16
As he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
Hebrews 1:1
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets,
2 Timothy 3:17
That the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
No, Mr. Andrew, actually, the LORD God Almighty wrote the Bible as His Holy Word, though here on earth, wonderfully, He used redeemed & holy men to write His Word of Truth, whether you believe it or not(like arrogantly, you said last year, as I, James C. Robinson(III), should’ve known right then, sir!
I’m sorry but wasn’t the man next to Jesus on the cross a murderer? Didn’t he go to heaven after Jesus granted it when he asked for forgiveness? You people really need to study your own damn word.
You are right he did go to heaven. He recognized his sin and asked for forgiveness. If he continued to live he would need to live in obedience to Jesus words.
I believe that God gave us free will so that we can decide whether or not to follow Him. If He had simply made a whole bunch of people and put them straight in heaven to glorify Him, that would be almost pointless. If you had a choice, would you want a friend who had chosen to trust and love you based on their experiences with you? Or would you want a robot you had created to do whatever you told it? That’s kind of how I think about God’s choice to implement free will. Hope that helps! 🙂
Please, leah, read the book that piper wrote. I believe that it resume all of our questions about this.
Free will is the capacity to choose without influence of anyone and anything. The bible says that we were born in sin. So all of our choose will be influenced by the sin. The only two people who has free will was Adam and Jesus (they could to choose between the good or evil). For us, we were born in sin, for this we need of God to do anything good in this world . Without him, we can do nothing that pleases. I believe that we are robots that cannot to get away from God’s plan. Look to this: ” And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.” Genesis 1:3-9… imagine with me: God saying to the stars to light and they start. God saying to the mountains to raise, and they do. So god says to us to do anything and we says NO. Doing this, we are taking God’s sovereignty. “For we are all become as one that is unclean, and all our righteousnesses are as a polluted garment: and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.” Isaiah 64:6. We can not demand anything of God. If we have something, it was because he gave us, and if we do not have, we do not have the right to complain against him. Hope that helps! =)
Nice points! Totally agree, never thought about it *edit wasn’t done* that way before. =)
haha! thanks, man! 😀
I edited my last comment fyi, I also wanted to add that people nowadays are all like “well God didn’t create mindless robots” and they’re so afraid of that…I appreciate how you address this! =)
If you are repentant from a blatant and willful sin of course God forgives that is what He is the Forgiver!! But if you willfully murdering people, refuse to repent of your sins and turn from your wicked way then you will pay the price. We can’t be murdering people and getting into heaven folks have you not read Revelation 21:8 yet???It doesn’t have any clauses (oh by the way if you said a prayer at church this scripture becomes invalidated). NO clauses. We HAVE TO assume that scripture means ALL PEOPLE. It is dangerous to assume anything else. Besides presumptiousness is a sin in and of itself.
Oh and Laura, you are correct in saying that if we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins….but once I have killed myself my confession is non existent.
And god knows the heart of a person.. NOWHERE in the bible does it say if you kill yourself you’ll be unforgiven.. You’re mistaking the bible for the Quran. You sound very arrogant like you know it ALL.. Truth be told you don’t.. You don’t even know if God truly did write the bible, you just have faith in it.. But in reality you don’t know for sure.
But Laura, if you kill yourself you are unable to repent because you are dead and on the side where there is only judgement left. Killing is an obvious sin. We all sin since we all miss the mark. But their is sin because we are frail and live in this world, and there is sin that leads to death.
To answer your questions:
If you murder someone and are repentant then of course Christ forgives you and you are under His grace.
A confession is non existent after you kill yourself because you are dead, and dead folk don’t confess.
Of course God will not judge us for sins that we didn’t know about. What kind of justice would that be if God is judging us for sins we didn’t know about right?
I think you and I agree on the fundamentals. I don’t see any person have the authority to tell people that if they kill themselves they will go to heaven. I think God will judge us all for this kind of statement. We don’t know for sure what happened as that person was dying so therefore we cannot know the final end. The scriptures do not tell us that a person who kills themselves will go to heaven, but the scriptures do tell us that murderers, cowards and faithless will not enter into heaven.
So God does not have a plan for people killing themselves, not at all ever. Murder, lying, fornication, adultery etc. do not come from above. Everything that is good is from above. So therefore suicide is not from God and so can never be a part of God’s plan. Satan comes to steal, to kill and to destroy.
God forgives you, even if you don’t confess that one particular sin. Once we confess our sin – as a whole; in general you might say – , once we confess that WE ARE SINNERS, He will save us. Even if you commit a sin and you die before you can confess it. Jesus is enough to cover the [forgivable] sin of non-confession. The key word here is SIN. Sin is our disease; our demise. Sins (plural) are particular parts of our disease. I would go so far as to say that it is not necessary to confess every single one of our sins. It just isn’t. It’s good, yes. Very good. But not necessary to salvation. All we must do is confess that we are sinners in need of God.
God DOES have a plan, and it DOES involve suicide. That’s not His WILL, per say, but it is in His plan. (In other words, it’s not what He WANTS, but what He allows.) He is not surprised by what man does. No, suicide is not from God, by any means. But He allows it, in His good plan, to strengthen our hearts and renew our minds and draw us closer to Him.
Scripture does say that murders and the faithless will not enter heaven. But it also says in Romans 6, “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
So if you were a murderer but you trusted in Jesus, you’re saved. Once and for all. No matter how many times you don’t confess. No matter how many times you sin.
If it is allowed for me I share this message from brother David Wilkerson. I believe how he also believes, not because I listen to him and his messages but because it is what the Lord has revealed to me in my years of walking with him and brother David was of the same. 🙂 We have probably exhausted this topic for now and my condolences of course go out to Haley and her family. May you all know the love and mercy and grace of our Lord and his abundant, everlasting love in your daily walk with Him.
http://sermons.worldchallenge.org/en/node/31457
I’m sorry I did not reply to this sooner; for some reason, I didn’t get a notification for this comment! I don’t plan on continuing this discussion, since I’m pretty sure we’ve batted the issue back and forth enough. But thank you for sharing your thoughts!
We don’t assume anything, Sarah. We KNOW the love of Christ. And we KNOW that even if we come to the end of our ropes and commit suicide, or sin against God, even to the end, He absolutely will not leave us.
Sorry guys and gals this board seems to be all over the place and I can’t find where to reply. So I am replying on a new spot. Laura sent this comment,
“Scripture does say that murders and the faithless will not enter heaven. But it
also says in Romans 6, “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” So if you were a murderer but you trusted in Jesus, you’re saved. Once and for all. No matter how many times you don’t confess. No matter how many times you sin. ”
Absolutely I agree that if we murder and then we trust in Jesus he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins. Now where to do you get this “once and for all” statement from, I notice you continue to make this statement? And you can call me Sarah that is fine. 🙂 Jesus says go and sin no more. Jesus never says go and it doesn’t matter if you continue sinning. I know where you are coming from you believe that once a person is saved they can never backslide. I do agree that once a person is “born again” it is extremely difficult, difficult to lose ones salvation. But the question is are we born again, many people go to church and know the lingo but are not actually born again.
Jesus died on the cross “once and for all” for all humanity and there never needed to be another sacrifice. It seems you have applied this statement to the never confessing sin. James 5 (below) speaks of confession of sin and also of saving a brothers soul from death by helping hime back to the fold. Sometimes we have blockages if we are raised a particular way. I left mans sayings years ago we will be surprised how much mindsets we have built up in our lives, we all have it. The scriptures tell us we are to “cast down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of Christ and make every thought captive”. This is the war we are in. It is man, or it is Jesus. My caution to everyone is that nobody knows if you will go to heaven if you commit suicide and to think that ANY human on this earth can guarantee that you do is foolish. Thank you Laura and everyone else for the great respectful conversation it was a great pleasure. Jesus blessings to all of you, He is absolutely faithful if you would only hear where i have come from and how I got to where I am you will be floored. Jesus is everyone we ever need, the meeter of ALL mens needs, just believe and cling to Jesus. I pray your generations will be powerhouses for Jesus. Amen!
13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.[b] 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit.
19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
Many people on this post keep saying God will not accept suicide. To my knowledge the 10 Commandments are what many believers state as the ultimate guidelines by which we should live our lives. The pertinent commandment to this post is the commandment “Thou shall not committ murder”. Suicde is not murder. Murder is defined just about everywhere as the act of one person taking the life of ANOTHER person. There must be two or more people for murder. Suicide involves usually only ONE person. Anthony Mastrandrea
You lack life experience. God does not heal, it is a myth, millions of crazy on the street, millions f suicides many by believers, asking a second before they jump for God to reveal or show or give peace and they receive nothing all they hear are crickets. God does not save, how many people have been massacred and killed begging god for salvation on this earth for their babies and they get chopped up in pieces, that is the response from God or most probably the illusion of God.
First, I’m so sorry for your loss, Haley. Losing people you hold close is very hard, but to lose them to suicide, I can’t even imagine.
All I know is that all sins are equal in the sight of the Lord. None is better or worse. Also, God forgives our past, present and future sins if we ask Him to forgive us and give our hearts to Him. God is a God of second chances. The only mistake your relative made was not trusting God and killing himself.
I do believe that he is in heaven right now.
I’m sorry people if I have overstretched this discussion it is such an important conversation to be had and so many people are taking their own lives. Life is so fragile we all live on the precipice of eternity. I am moving on now but just watched an excerpt on suicide from Ravi Zacharias whom I very much agree with and appreciate and hope it is okay to share here also. The Lord Jesus be with you and bless you all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTtUokBshW4
Sarah please read the previous message I sent you. I hope it helps you better understand the problem. The real bottom line is we can never understand why many tragic things God permits to happen because as God has said God does not think like we do. God is Supernatural and immortal. We sre only natural and mortal beings. The situstuon would be like asking a 6 month year old baby to explain how the Universe first began versus asking a Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor the same question. I hope this helps you. Anthiny Mastrandrea
Thank you Sarah
I recently lost my best friend to suicide. He was an atheist, not christian. It has been almost 3 months and I’m struggling to understand how he could do this. I’ve been in the position of wanting to kill myself many times, but I haven’t gone through with it. Is there anyway to truly get over the pain?
Dear Alana, time heals. You must lean into Jesus and trust him for your WHOLE life. He loves you and will carry you. In this world there is tribulation but Jesus promises to be with us and to bring us to victory. Jesus says “be of good cheer for I have overcome the world.” Meaning that all who are in Jesus and trust him ALONE will overcome the world with, and in, Jesus. Jesus says “Satan, comes to steal to kill and to destroy”. Satan is the one who drives people to suicide. Satan is the one who speaks to the mind all those things contrary to Jesus words. Satan is the one that drives people to suicide. Satan came to Jesus in the desert after Jesus was at the end of the 40 day fast and Satan tried to tempt even Jesus to jump off the cliff and take his life!!! Jesus quoted the holy scriptures and defeated Satan’s lies. “for it is written you shall not tempt the Lord your God” Satan says to Jesus “if you are God’s son then throw yourself off the cliff and He will save you”. Satan comes to us and says “if you kill yourself surely God is grace and he will forgive you after the fact”. That is the lie. the bible says that “it is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement”. There is no more forgiving after we die. My concern is that you have stated you wanted to kill yourself many times. Even apostle Paul states that he had been in distresses of which they wished they had not been living, but never to orchestrate his own death!!! Satan gets a foothold in our lives when we believe and act on his lies. I pray and beg you please openly and verbally repent and ask the Lord Jesus to forgive you for not trusting him with your life, with your pain, with your anxiety…. In doing so you will close the door on Satan’s lies he has sowed in your mind and heart. The only way to stop this life of destruction is to repent and turn from ever allowing Satan’s lies to dwell in your mind. As I have told all my sons, a thought in your mind does not mean it is your own. Satan comes and drops thoughts in all of our minds, but not until we believe those thoughts do those words become ours. I had terrible problems with thoughts, and yes very destructive thoughts. I would believe them and they would go straight to my heart and play out in my life. It wasn’t until the Lord Jesus showed me one time that when a thought comes it does not necessarily mean it is mine. Instead, as soon as I was willing to believe those thoughts at that moment they became my own and they would then rule my life. I ask you to write down the words of these lies that come to your mind. If you like you can post them here and lets examine these words under the light of Jesus words about your life. I can pray for you over the phone that you will be free from Satan’s lies if you wish just let me know and I can post my phone number. If not, you can do these things to be free. Ask Jesus Christ to forgive you of the sin of receiving the lies from Satan of taking your life into your own hands and destroying it. Repent of it, that means you turn away and never go to that thought system EVER again. It is okay to despair of life, but it is not okay to kill God’s creation. Ask the Lord Jesus to help you to abide in Him and obey his word. Praise him in song and worship for his goodness in your life, give thanks. Lay down your life for Jesus. You will close the door on Satan in your life doing this and you will be free. “For who the Son of man sets free, he is free indeed”.
Sarah de Kroon. You are wrong time does not heal the pain of someone who truly loves a wife,husband,or child or anyone that was very special to them who has died. The great singer Bonnie Raitt once sang these words that I will paraphrase ” Whoever says times heals all wounds never had a broken heart”. My wife died 14 years ago and I have more pain now than the day she died. Tommorow I will have more pain than today. For someone who has this increasing pain it is almost for most people to understand it because they never had such a powerfull , very very very high level of pain cause by the death of the person that died. In romantic love between 2 people they are referred to as soul mates. It appears from your comments you have this very high level of love but you are not alone, very few people do. Anthony Mastrandrea
Anthony Mastrandrea, I have lost a baby and i can say that time does heal… WHEN we submit to Jesus’s kingship. Of our own selves we can do nothing. Did Jesus for nothing say that He is our Healer? Did Jesus for nothing say that He heals the broken hearted? Of course Jesus words are true and amen and men are liars. I choose to believe Jesus words.Jesus doesn’t want us carrying the burdens of this earth, be free and cast your cares upon Him brother!
This is obviously something ugly people who have no chance of making it in the the real world say. If I was as ugly as you I would want an imaginary friend telling me how great and special I am too because you have no one attractive enough that’s worth it in the real world. Comparing losing a baby to a soulmate .. That’s crazy.. You can compare something that you can create another of, to something at some of a kind that you’ve been with for a very long time such as a soul mate. The day I find a Christian who’s actually attractive, is the day I’ll convert. All super religious people are ugly and know that they’re ugly and won’t succeed in life off of looks.. And for anyone to accept religion proves they have no logic or reasoning.. So not only are they ugly but they’re also stupid. Talk about double whammy!
Ashlee thanks for your response. You are right there is no comparison in pain between losing a child to losing a true soul mate you were together with for 31 years . You are again right that these religeous zealots who pretend to be God and judge everyone. This is exactly the opposite of what God truly wants. Not judgement but love and compassion. Thank you. Anthony Mastrandrea
never heard more dribble in my life.
I’m sorry for your anger, but don’t take it out on God or the people that love Him. Christians have PhD’s, and some are models. Don’t judge a book by its cover…our Lord touches hearts, and I hope He will touch yours.
DearSarah you my condolences for the lost of your child. I do believe in a God but I do not have a faith if Jesus is or is not God. I lean more there is no Holy Trinity other than God the Father is the only God. I pray through out every day to God the Father. However 14 years without my wife has not lessen the pain as I said in my first message my pain grows more each day. I do not want to be insulting but perhaps the love for your child was not as intense as the love for my wife. If you really realy really love someone to the highest level no amount of time erases the pain. Anthony Mastrandrea
Dear Anthony,
I wish my husband was as kind as you are, I wish someone loved me as you loved your wife.
I came to this page because life become very difficult for me.
My husband left me, for someone else. I don’t care about it but one thing come after another thing.
I am looking for job, I have to support my kids, but all doors are closing in me. What should I do?
I need help but no one is there for me. Not even God, I believe like you in a God the one who created all universe.
Why God created me if is not there for me.
I am always for all my family, I took their pain and suffering but now no one is for me. And God is not forgiving if someone end their life.
PARISA. YOU HAVE A BEAUTIFUL NAME. I WILL TRY TO HELP YOU AS MUCH AS I CAN. IT WOULD BE EASIER FOR ME TO TALK INSTEAD OF EMAILING. DO YOU HAVE A PHONE OR CAN YOU BORROW ONE? IF YOU CAN CALL ME WITH A PHONE NUMBER I WILL CALL YOU BACK SO YOU WILL NOT HAVE ANY PHONE CHARGES. MY NUMBER IS 323 982 5703. I LIVE IN LOS ANGELES, PACIFIC TIME ZONE. HOPE YOU CAN CALL ME. ANTHONY
Parisa. I am not very good with emailing like this. If you can call me I will call you back so you do not have any phone charges. I will do my best to help you. My number is 323 982 5703. I live in Los Angeles, Pacific Time Zone. Hope you call me. Anthony
Dear Anthony,
Hope you are doing well. Thank you for replying me.
Yesterday I was really depress.
My father passed away recently, I was really close to my father.
My husband also left more than 2 years, legally we are separated. It is a long story.
I am also looking for job, and not getting any. All these things make me depress and there is anybody that I can talk or go for help.
Thank God I have my kids, but they are little, I don’t want to burden my kids with my sorrow.
It seems all door has been closed to me, and I am knocking all these heavy doors, but no one is there to open it. Yesterday was one of those days that I just wanted to cry.
I suppose to go for my 2nd interview, but haven’t heard from them even though they said they will call me for 2nd.
So this is me and my story.
Once again thank you for responding.
Parisa, if you believe in God but you also believe that God doesn’t help then you believe in the deist God, the God who make the world and set up natural laws to run it but personally doesn’t intervene in it. That’s why earthquakes kill hundreds of thousands of people at a time including Christian women and children, cancer kills just as many Christians as it does Hindus, Buddhists and atheists no matter how many prayers are prayed to God to mercy and like you Christians lose their jobs and never work again as frequently as atheists regardless of whether prayers are made or not. This is hard evidence that God doesn’t involve Himself in our lives. Good luck finding a job, you’re on your own; no help will be forthcoming from God, sadly.
According to very good research men suffer more than women when they have a loved one die. Women are stronger than men. Anthony Mastrandrea
I’m So sorry Anthony Mastrandrea Your heart must be in shambles and I understand your pain. I lost my first born, deeply beloved child. I carried her in my body, I nursed her, I sang to her, I taught her, I played with her, I adored her. The pool blue of her eyes sent my into a momentary trance. I loved her with my entire heart and soul. She died in a tragic way at 17.
I agree with Sarah. Jesus IS our healer. He came to BIND our Broken hearts and to Heal and Save our very soul. HE experienced the pain of this world and He Overcame it on the cross.
I believe that your heart is truly in tiny pieces and you do not know How they can Ever be whole again. It seems Impossible. But HE IS the GOD of The Impossible.
I believed I would Never smile again, I couldn’t if she couldn’t, I wouldn’t eat, I couldn’t if she couldn’t. I didn’t know how to breathe, I didn’t want to if she couldn’t.
But I did Asked God to find an inexplicable way to go on, to believe in joy again for my loved ones still on this planet.
I have no explanation, His ways are Not My Ways. Somehow He has restored my joy. He has given me peace.
I am now faced with a brain tumor, But God is in Control and that is the Only way I would want it.
I realized that my daughter’s parting is Not a Tragedy but a Blessing, A Blessing for her. She is in unspeakable Glory and We are persevering, running the race until we can hold our loved ones for ALL of ETERNITY. We honestly cannot comprehend that truly here. Nothing on earth is eternal. This was not her home, this is not my home. This is but a breath in the scope of eternity.
Don’t waste that breath, Store up Treasure in Heaven that you will share for ALL of eternity with your beautiful bride.
SPEND TIME gathering those treasures to share with her!!! Don’t spend time being bamboozled by Satan’s lie that death on this earth is the end. Don’t allow Satan to have another portion of your mind. Don’t waste time so you then arrive with nothing to celebrate with your bride. She is eagerly awaiting to hear about your overcoming and your mended heart. I’m sure she would hate that you live in agony.
As Sarah said, Cast Your Cares upon Jesus, look full in His wonderful face. He KNOWS, HE UNDERSTANDS, HE HAD THE ANSWER.
Death no longer reigns, He does and He is clearly holding your bride in his lap. She lis oved beyond measure .
If He can heal me, He can heal you.
Lean in, cry, pray, listen to worship music and immerse yourself in His word asking for understanding.
You are in my heart and prayers.
I will post my email if you need to contact me at ANY time for prayer, a listening ear, encouragement or to share His strength through me, I am willing.
[email protected]
Jesus has poisoned me not healed me, I have not asked for healing since I know God does not heal, if he did, people would be healed. I have asked for strength to endure and he has given me weakness. I was better off.
You are certainly not talking about the Jesus in the bible then if you have been poisoned! It is obvously “another Jesus” that you speak of. Satan also comes as an “angel of light” counterfeiting. As the bible Jesus says “Satan has come to steal, to kill and to destroy”. Obviously the works on your life you have described are from Satan himself!
By believing in Jesus and his “saviour” role, he has poisoned me. It is all BS manipulation that harms greatly. And correcting this great harm is even more difficult than getting off a heroin addiction.
time does heal i mom died in 2005 and time did heal me.
Unsubscibe me please.
Sarah de Kroon.i don’t believe everything satan says all i know that satan lies so everything satan’s lies. but i do believe that if someone takes their own lives god forgive them because the love he has for them but of course they have to mean it. everyone has though of it at sometime in their lives do it is different then taking it. satan know the bible to.
Robbie, All over the internet people are stating what they believe. But we have to ask ourselves the question, did we create ourselves and do we have any kind of powers over our life, sicknesses etc? We would all have to agree that “no” we didn’t create ourselves and none of us have the power of life and the genes we come with! This means that none of us have the powers to determine anything about humanity by our own human reasoning. In other words, who are you and who am I to make up a belief up in our own heads and determine that it is the truth?
i know that is god job to tell it time satan trys too deceive us into killing ourselfs.
If suicide is a ‘sin’ then does God give a special reward for those having endured in misery thru to the end? Does God love a ‘cheerful’ sufferer? Maybe life in this world just isn’t for everyone…
Your right
Sarah thank you for your reply and thank you for replying quickly. Thank you also for sharing your times of pain and sorrow. I wish you well. You appear to be a top quality person and I do not say that to too many people. I have very high standards. However it appears we still have some differances of opinion which is ok. I do not want you to change what in your heart you believe to be true. You must know that while I do believe in God and actually have scientific proof God exists,not that scientic proof is all that important, I do not believe Jesus Christ was God . I believe that only God the Father was God and not in a God trinity of God the Father,Jesus Christ,and the Holy Spirit. I do not mean this next remark to be insulting or derogatory to you,as I said your a Top Quality Person, but I think trying to explain the intensity of the love Annie ,my deceased wife, and I had would be like trying to explain color to someone born blind. It is impossible to explain. My marriage with Annie was/is the greatest marriage and love and friendship in the entire history of the world. The God I believe in had reasons for her death which at least on this worldly plain I will never understand but I know were GOOD REASONS.However that does not stop my pain from growing each day. I stand by my case, Time does not heal ALL wounds. The emphasis is on ALL. Sincerely, Anthony
Sarah, in rereading your comments to me it is very clear we have very different opinions of God that are not resolvable. May God bless you. Sincerely, Anthony
Anthony, while this forum has become a tad aged, I just want to say first and foremost that I’m so sorry for your loss.. I can only imagine how many times you’ve heard those words, but even so, she still remains just as strongly within your heart, more-so every day. It seems there are so many angles at which to look at what happened when it comes to God, and I’m sure you’ve tried them all. Each angle has its earthly novelty, but only for a brief time, as all things and beings on this earth fade with time. This earth never promises forever.. and no faith in this world can change that. But thus, “forever” belongs elsewhere. It belongs in the one and only place life and love can prosper without pain, without suffering.. Heaven. I will not pretend to know or understand the pain you have felt and feel, ever-increasingly.. only God can. However, just as all other things on this earth are temporary, so is pain. I do not wish to imply your pain will suddenly fade, not at all. I only mean to say that your time in this world only lasts so long. There is a place beyond these little moments on earth where your wife is happier than she has ever been.. more at peace than ever before, for God shall love her and take care of her always.. just as he lived through you to do so in this world. God knows how much you love her, more than life itself, and then infinitely more. He knows.. And He sure loves both of you, in the highest of purity. That is of course why he brought your souls together, two perfectly fitting puzzle pieces.. the other half of yourself is in God’s embrace, and man, how I can only imagine how much she misses you.. but in both her love and God’s love, they still hurt to see you in so much pain. Whomever said time heals all wounds was not entirely right.. no amount of time mends a broken heart, nor the pieces it shattered into. But time does teach one how to care for their wounds.. and the darker parts of your pain, your demons, you cannot rid yourself of them, but you can learn to live above them. While you yourself cannot fix those shattered pieces, the love of your wife and God can wrap arms around your heart to hold the pieces together.. you must let their love set you free, for once you live with true fullness of your heart, she will always be in everything you do. Make her proud.. and let God, who is taking care of her for you, let Him free you of such oppressive suffering. I know I speak mostly in metaphor and in grandiose measures.. but your time with her has never been over. She still wakes with you and falls to sleep with you.. the story has not ended. This little time you have left in life is but one of chapters to come. A chapter of pain that won’t truly fade on earth.. but also one of redemption in letting their love free you of drowning in grief. Your smile still makes her smile.. I think she’d want to see more of them. God bless, Anthony.. I truly do hope these words may have helped in some way, but if not, you are still strongly in my prayers, and I pray too for much better days ahead
Joshua I can think of no better thank you for your excellent response to me than to provide you the below poem which is for a situation I hope you never have to deal with which I unfortunately had to deal with; losing my soul mate. The poem was written by a great jazz muscian when his best friend and bandmate died. The words of the poem are spoken by the deceased to his still alive best friend and band mate.”Death is nothing at all. I have only slipped away into the next room. Whatever we were to each other, we still are. Call me by my old familar name. Speak to me in the same easy way you always have. Laugh as we always laughed at the little jokes we enjoyed together. Play,Smile, Think of me and pray for me. Life means all that ever meant. It is the same as it always was.There is absolute unbroken continuity. Why should I be out of your mind Because I am out of your sight? I am but waiting for you, for an interval, Somewhere very near, just around the Corner, All is well. Nothing is past. Nothing has been lost. One brief Moment, and all will be as it was before-Only better. Infinitely happier. We will Be one, together forever.”
See you later, George. Have a good time!! Joshua I of course when reading this poem substitute Tony for George. Annie my deceased soul mate called me Tony not Anthony. And substitute Annie for Don under “Love always,” In addition to yourself I give you permission to share this poem with whomever you think it may provide help to. Thank you again for your excellent, warm, and caring response to me. Sincerely, Anthony Mastrandrea
I believe I left out the closing of the poem “Love always,” Don. Which now makes sense of my saying I of course when reading the poem substitute Annie for Don. Annie of course being the name I called my deceased soulmate though her legal name was Anne. Thanks again for your excellent, caring. and warm response to me. Sincerely, Anthony Mastrandrea
Your wrong. When your soulmate dies the pain is not temporary. Actually each day is more painfull and it is permanent pain
No Josh you cannot imagine the pain.
Dated, yes, but I did find interest until it dissolved in human understanding…our God is a great God, and through His Son we learned true love and acceptance, and above all, forgiveness.
Actually, Anthony Mastrandrea, although I’m sorry to disappoint you or anybody else like yourself, yet, a. because the Bible is either all or none of the LORD’s Holy Word, still, unfortunately, you’re wrong despite being entitled to your own opinion anyway, b. despite the word “Trinity” not necessarily being used in the Bible, still, it describes the One Triune Godhead revealed in 3 Persons, the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit (though more mentioned in the [Greek written] New Testament), & c.
James, Thank you for your reply. You cite the Bible as providing incontestable proof that God conaists in a Trinity Form. I am well aware of this belief. I went 14 years to Roman Catholic Parochial schools. Ever read the Baltimore Catechism? You rely heavily on the Bible as proof that God consists of a Holy Trinity.The emphasis on being a Biblical scholar is perhaps the lowest of any Christian Church. I know that personnally from being a Roman Catholic trained in the relgion directly in Roman Catolic schools for many years and also from belonging to several other Christian Churchs. There is no objective verifiable incontestabe proof that whatever the Bible says about Anything is what God wants us to believe. Isn’t there some verse in the Bible where God says something like “My thoughts are not your thoughts, I am God you are a mere mortal, how could you possibly think you could understand my thoughts, My actions, My Will?” You and all mankind are insulting God actually when you say You know God how presumptious of you, how sinful of you!
No, Anthony Mastrandrea, because of Salvation, forgiveness, & Redemption thought our Lord Jesus Christ, His divinity, Virgin Birth, life, death on Calvary’s Cross, & Resurrection to life forever that other true believers in Jesus Christ & I’ve been eternally bound to Heaven because my Father keeps His promises, which is why sadly, again, about the LORD’s other children & me, you are wrong! Oh & yes, His ways are higher than our ways; but also, still, as He said in His Holy Word, the Bible, that’s no excuse to deny that truly, our Heavenly Father, Son[our Lord Jesus Christ], & Holy Spirit are the LORD, the only True God, no matter what you believe! Otherwise, we’ve never existed; & Jesus’ death would’ve been in vain! Please think about it, sir!
Thanks James for your reply. I truly believe in God the Father but lack faith in Jesus,or the Holy Spirit also being God. Anthony Mastrandrea
Amen…it’s refreshing to hear Biblical truth, and not some new age system of worship. When I read the Bible, I find advice that is above, and reassurances that help all believers. As Paul noted, all Biblical wisdom is poured out from God, and from those who speak for Him and with Him. I struggle with many things, but when I read the Bible, I know this is heavenly wisdom, and meant to heal and help. While burdened with shame, scripture offers hope, and we should never lose hope, for that is all that keeps me here.
God has told me to commit suicide. my life has been unbearable every year since young, now false police bullshit I give up. I am an emissary for god, I now give up let them kill me, the austin police department will be doing so to a person as soft as christ, that is who I am
God or no God, it’s never the right decision to end your life. Your life is precious and special and had potential. Please think about that. Your life means something to someone.
I am on this path now. God knows I am and God know what I require to change paths, and it is a Godly thing. I will bet I will end up dead in a week and God does not exist.
Hi,
My husband committed suicide about a month ago and i have no idea where to start when trying to cope. We have two children, one is 5 years and the other is 10 months.
Please advise on what to do, anything related to coping and healing would help.
My husband also took his own life (6 months ago ). I know what a painful place you are in, i’m still in it. Its so confusing dont try to rush through the grief. Be honest and let people help you. I will pray for you and your children
Thank you soo much Helen. It really helps to know that I am not alone in this. I’d really appreciate the prayers. Can I get in touch with you privately, if you don’t mind?
I have a facebook account but havent really used it you can friend request me
Many people wonder if the will go to heaven (whatever that may be) if they commit suicide. They believe it is a unforgivable sin if they take their own life.
My answer is that in the Christian faith God committed suicide. It is said that Jesus was “the lamb of God who took away the sins of the world.”
For some reason the Hebrew God wanted blood as a sacrifice for sin. Actually not much different than other religions who sacrificed virgin in the like.
If Jesus is the Lamb coming to Earth to save humanity then he coming to commit suicide. After all, who can kill God if he doesn’t want to be killed? For me, Jesus committed divine suicide, that is, if he was God at all, which is a different discussion.
I want to allay the fears of anyone who considers suicide that their afterlife is not an issue if life has become intolerable. We put sick animals down (and animals Don’t have “sin” (since the live by the nature that was given them by their Creator) to be merciful. Why are we not merciful to ourselves?
I am not endorsing suicide as such. Often the person wants to make a permanent solution to a temporary problem. They fail to be able to see a point in the future when the problem they are dealing with will be overcome and a moot point. Remember, even kings must deal with circumstances.
Still, for others, suicide may be an answer to an intractable and chronic condition. I don’t condemn them and neither should they condemn themselves.
I have absolutely no idea how suicide can be a part of God’s plan. There are some thoughts.
One is God already knew this person was going to kill himself since he is all knowing and all powerful. In other words, suicide was pre-destined for this person which is terrible in my opinion that God already knew when that person was born, that the person will commit suicide. And God couldn’t change it because….it’s God’s will and he always knows better.
Two is God uses suicide for his purpose. For the same person who committed suicide, his or her family started a support group which helped many people turn from suicide and rely on the God so sense, one thousand lives were saved at the expense of one. Pretty good bargain and glorifies God but in a way, leaves a bitter taste in one’s mouth.
Three is God simply wasn’t really looking out for this person. In this case, God doesn’t take any responsibility and when the person stands before God challenging him for a hard life, God would retort that he NEVER said that life would better being a Christian and praying for help. In other words, God absolves himself by the fine writings in the Bible by saying, “Well, I NEVER said that nor promised that.” This is a tactic used in the courtroom which leaves the hurting party damaged and confused. Despicable but hey, it’s God. What can you do?
It hard to trust a God who would allow enough hurt for a person to commit suicide. He cried out to God but God wasn’t there to help him out. Plus I think God knows his cry was sincere and genuine yet refused to help. Can you trust a God like this with the excuse of “my ways are higher than yours” and the person ends up killing himself? I don’t believe God is capable for feeling guilt.
Back in WW2, Germany accepted and trust Hitler’s ways because they believed “his ways are higher than theirs.” Yes, Hitler was just a person but his followings were almost God-like. Almost equivalent to that of a god. And their cities got firebombed…..
I lost my son Joshua to suicide 2 months ago and I am completely heartbroken, devastated, and just don’t know how I am going to survive this. I am definitely seeking God for comfort and strength. He is the only way I am going to get through this.
Committing Suicide during the eclipse today. This world is a state and want nothing more to do with it. Goodbye world
If this is for real, STOP. There is hope! I get it, the world is a messed up place and you want to escape. But STOP. Jesus gives us hope! He has overcome the world, and there is hope to do the same in Him. Turn to Jesus.
“But God will never forget the needy; the hope of the afflicted will never perish.”
Psalm 9:18 NIV
The question comes down to one of duty.
Did Jesus want to die knowing fully the extent of his (and those close to Him) suffering?
Did those close to Jesus want (or were indifferent to) Jesus’ death?
The answer to both of those are obviously no. What Jesus did was in the best interest and for the lone benefit of any that would accept his action for what it was.
I am 60 years old and will be losing my job pretty quickly.
I have looked for 6 months for possible employment and am told I’m either overqualified or too old. My wife of 35 years does not work and will not consider it.
Unfortunately due to some serious lack of judgement in previous years I have no retirement or savings to count on. I have 2 children in college that i promised to put through school. The only thing I have in the credit side of my ledger is a pretty good life insurance policy. I have read it and it had anti suicide clauses for the first 5 years only. (the policy is 18 years old)
I have prayed and sought God in all this, but have had no response. Which means that either whatever I do will have no impact on His Kingdom, or… That my suicide will have the most impact on His Kingdom and therefor is His Will. or… My previous actions and life before I became a christian, negated any standing i had with God.
So its pretty easy to list the pros and cons. Will my family be sad if I take my life? …I certainly hope so. Will they be much better off with a real chance at a good life? … Absolutely.
So after looking at the situation from a distance it becomes pretty obvious that suicide is not just a choice for me but an obligation. I have about 90 days to figure out how and where I will do it. My only goal is to have as little drama as possible.
So, anyway, to answer your question… Yes suicide can be God’s will and can result in much better things for those you care about.
Scott……I wish you would respond to Joseph’s blog and mine too. Right now you appear to be in a mental prison that gives the appearance of no way out. But know the truth and the truth shall set you free from this imprisoned state of mind which is not your true reality. Christ is your only Truth. He does not want you to commit suicide. He has something better for you if you will only give Him a chance. Your current circumstances and mind-set are not the same circumstances that God currently has in store for you. In Acts 16:25 Paul and Silas were imprisoned. They were innocent yet found singing hymns and praying to God in the darkest most wretched conditions. Their circumstances seemed hopeless. It would take a miracle to release them from prison. Yet God had a far greater purpose in mind for both Silas and Paul. Now these two men walked by faith and not by sight while giving glory to God through hymns and prayers. God responded to their praises and intervened with an earthquake. Can you imagine God designing a harmless earthquake that opened all the prison doors and broke off all the chains throughout the entire prison. Remember even the other prisoners were listening to their hymns and we’re blessed. But the jailer thought everyone had already escaped so he drew his sword to kill himself (the Roman government typically executed the guards who allowed prisoners to escape). But Paul yelled out to the guard not to harm himself. You see the jailer didn’t really know the real truth about his own circumstances. He was about to commit suicide based on a lie. Yet God had something far better for the jailer too. That evening the jailer and his entire household received their salvation in Christ Jesus. Perhaps many other prisoners also gave their heart to Christ Jesus. What Lucifer means for evil – God will use for good. Paul and Silas were released from prison the next day. Everyone had a new change of circumstances because two men praised God with hymns instead of dreary complaints. Scott………get on your knees and ask God what you need to do. Glorify His name in advance for your hope is always in Him and not in your circumstances. Maybe God will ask you to start your own business. Maybe that new job is right around the corner. Maybe it is a phone call away! But you need to go to the Source who has the answer. He is a good God. Give Him a chance. Christ Jesus died on the Cross for you so why can’t you give Him this opportunity to help you. But it must be His way because His thoughts are higher than your thoughts and His ways are higher than your ways. Do you think that Paul and Silas knew that an earthquake was in God’s plans for them? So allow God His miracle in your life. Allow the Holy Spirit to guide you to the right local church to receive continual prayer until you are stronger. You can also go online to Grantley Morris to receive online prayer. Grantley has wonderful articles to encourage you in Christ Jesus. God has a better plan for your life to help you and not to hurt you. The only plans you need to be making is serving God. Then the battle becomes God’s not yours and with God there is Victory. I’m praying for you too!
Nooo! Don’t be tricked by thinking that mans creation of schooling and credit and assets gives meaning to life. Not true. If you have your health and family you are rich. Never be tricked into believing your loved ones will be grateful that you left. Define for me what a “good” life is? It is being alive. Where there is a will there is a way. Don’t quit. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
I am one of those who has lost total faith in God and in Jesus’ sacrifice. I have had such a rough go in life–all my prayers left unanswered; nothing from the Holy Spirit to help keep me on track; just a total and complete absence of any evidence God is in my life helping me out–that I just gradually drifted away day by day, month by month and finally year by year. In all this time I have not had one urging from God to get back to Him so I’ve simply forgotten about Christianity and am now permanently (I feel) reprobate. If I were to contemplate suicide I’m afraid it would be a totally isolated decision based only on whether I feel I can endure or whether I feel there is no hope. 1 Corinthians 10:13 is completely alien to me because I have faced so many trials in my life without any way of escape except what I have provided for myself. Far as I’m concerned “the Lord helps those who help themselves”. I truly wish it had not turned out this way. I once prayed, “Lord, if I ever am in danger of losing my salvation please take my life.” Well, 20 years later I still have my life and am as far away from God as any atheist except I still believe in God. He apparently doesn’t believe in me, it seems.
Sarah, the Scriptures were written by men who were part of the Establishment, they were Scribes, held in high regard. Anything to do with the so called Establishment, I treat with suspicion. Having said that I do believe in Jesus, but where man is concerned, I think my Saviour is horrified, and truly saddened.
My son took his life I don’t understand
God has a strange denver of humor but he is still in charge. I don’t like the way he treats me and my son. It almost feels abusive. I am suffering and it’s not in my head. Every day I think suicide and St times plan it in my head. I am unsure if he will forgive me if I do. Ian 61and my body cannot take the physical suffering. All I know is suffering from abused as a child to torment as an adult,God has not let up. I just know that I have studied hell in the bible. I know that there are 2 types of resurrection in which the body never dies. In hell and in heaven. The horrifying thing is your body and nerves will be in tact in horrifying pain for eternity.
My belief is that nothing happens without God’s plan. Yes, there’s free will, but ultimately God has a plan for you. I’ve been wrestling with the thought of suicide since I was 15 years old, I’m now 49. I’m certain that it’s God’s plan for my life, to commit suicide. No matter how often I pray, how faithful I am, my prayers fall way short. This could be funny to some, but I just want to point out the thoughts that we have before we actually go through with such a horrific ending. But, we just come to a point where we can’t take no more. In my case, I’m in a bad relationship, problems with family and I’m really sensitive. I can’t help that, that’s the way I am. Been through way toooooo much, consequenlty it’s a battle every single day. I had a conversation with a few people that said they never contemplate suicide, I thought it was normal, crosses my mind almost everyday. Does anyone on here know how to recite the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy?