For years I could never find God. The real problem was that I wasn’t looking. I was so stuck in my defiance and my will to “do things myself” that I didn’t allow myself to open up to God.
That changed for me this past Fall.
I was at one of the lowest points of my life. It’s truly amazing the higher power that seizes us at the moment when our knees hit the floor. God was there for me, I just didn’t know it yet.
I was an atheist — a plague passed onto me by my parents and a lifetime of cruelty. I saw no hope. I saw no God. I wanted to live, but I didn’t even know why anymore. So one day I did something that I would have never in a million years imagined myself doing. I didn’t even know exactly why I was doing it. I went to church.
I wore my best sweater and jeans with no holes. I respected God even though I didn’t believe in Him. The church was huge and people flooded in, filling every pew seat. They were all smiling, they looked so happy and I remember wondering, Why?
When the band started playing worship music, the room exploded with energy and life. There were people jumping up and down, others dancing in the aisles, some singing, others with their hands raised to the sky, some even had their eyes closed.
When I looked around me, as I stood still with my arms glued by my sides, I saw that all these people had one thing in common. They appeared to be having a deep, spiritual experience. I couldn’t fathom it, but I recognized that it was a very beautiful thing, and I wanted to have that.
The following week I received a Bible in the mail, a gift that was infinitely precious. Without entirely realizing what I was doing, I began to read. I remember one night coming across Jeremiah 29:11-14…
“For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me. When you seek me with all your heart I will be found.”
That night I prayed to God, asking Him for forgiveness and asking Him into my life. That Sunday I went back to church, as I did every Sunday after that.
In a nutshell, that was how I became a Christian. The point of sharing my journey is to say “Hey, it’s okay if you weren’t raised a Christian. Your years of strife don’t make you any less of a prize in God’s eyes.” I struggled for years on how to let Jesus in my life, and the simple, beautiful truth is — you just have to ask.
So to all the Christians out there: Don’t forget to pray for those that are lost, that they may too come to know our truly awesome God.
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Wow Haley. I love this! That is so totally awesome!!
Thanks for your courage! So so glad you found Jesus!
This is beautiful. Praise God, Haley!
You are young, so there is time for you to recover from this set back. Good luck.
Whether you are old or young, it only takes a second to recover from your disbelief. God bless. 😉
Hello The Rejected,
So I was reading your comments and was wondering (I’m genuinely interested) what scientific evidence you have to prove Christianity incorrect. If you would grant me the time and effort to type out a few, I would be grateful. Thank you.
I also clicked on your name to look more into what you believe and took the link to your Twitter account. It seems all of your posts are atheistic, so obviously you are very strong in your opinions, so i think that you MUST have evidence, if not a story, to support your worldveiw.
Maybe you are familiar with the concept of the ‘burden of proof’. In this instance, the burden of proof lies with you. In the same way the burden of proof would lie with me if I were a believer in The Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Bertand Russell’s teapot.
There is as much scientific evidence for the existence of your God as there are for all the other god’s – none. I think I can safely assume you do not believe in Thor, Tlaltecuhtli, or Zeus, and nor do I. And I disbelieve in them for the very same reasons you don’t. There is no evidence for them. Not a shred. You believe in your god because of cultural reasons. Nothing more. There is not a shred of evidence to support the existence of ANY god. And hence we have ‘faith’.
I have noticed that throughout this discussion that you have been avoiding talking about your faith, evolution. You come here, ( in a very low but discreet manner) and try and shut out are faith. Doing this suggests to me that you have insecurities about what you believe, and in this case it seems evolution. Why else would you try to argue against our faith? I mean, if you were totally confident in evolution, you wouldn’t need to come here, plus of course it wouldn’t even matter because if we were made by chance, nothing in life has any importance. Neverless I have to conclude that you are either searching for answers, or trolling and are trying and quench our faith and preach the message of evolution.
I welcome you to stay if it is the first one, but if it is the second you should go, I mean really. What good is an internet debate for both sides that won’t change that person no matter how much they try.
I have much to say to your arguments, but I would rather not since I know that internet debates are pointless. So please reconsider what you are doing here.
That’s the problem, Liam, he can’t prove he is right. Instead he has to prove us wrong, and by default have his theory be correct. I wasn’t really going to get into this, but I figured I’d give input to you, Liam. If the rejected decides to reply to my comment that was not to him I will not answer.
I wouldn’t know how to reply to your comment Grant – it is nonsensical.
Liam The Creationist,
#1 Learn what a proven scientific theory actually is. In simple term’s, it’s what you and I would call a ‘fact’ in normal, everyday language. Evolution is a proven scientific theory.
#2 If you wish to believe the Earth is flat, gravity doesn’t exist, and ID is verifiable, then you are living in the Dark Ages. Meanwhile, the rest of the civilized world looks upon this leaning towards creationism in your society as indicative of a decaying and diseased education system.
#3 Lastly, don’t be so quick to believe everything brainwashing adults, and literature from the Discovery Institute, tell you. Get some books written by (real) evolutionary biologists, and get an education.
Don’t worry about having a discussion with me. I don’t have discussions with creationists. They are not on my level, nor worthy of my time.
First of all there is no such thing as a scientifically proven theory. Second of all your last two arguments are just being offensive, so no need to respond to them.
You really are just going on your defensive now. You have not yet once tried to defend your something about what you believe, instead you just refute and say whatever we think is wrong. All our ideas and arguments are wrong. Yet, you give us no reason why they are, you are merely proving my previous point.
You said earlier there is absolutely no proof that there is a God. Well there is plenty, look into the mirror! How could random processes make a such complicated being that has thoughts, emotions, and a soul. I can’t see how it can. Not even the best scientists have figured out the detailed parts of a simple cell in your body! Does that show you how wonderfully and fearfully build we are?
Does it comfort you to think that we were made by chance, have nothing to live for, no one cares about us, and that WE are ALL an accident. No, I really don’t think it does.
We have redemption through Jesus Christ. He loves and cares for us even in our hardest moments. Random chance evolution can’t do that!
The Bible says,
…”for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well.” -Psalm 139:14
I know very well that God loves me. Deep down every human being does. But it all comes down to whether you will except His love, or reject it.
The theory of is as ‘proven’ as many other scientific theories. The theory of flight is proven multiple times a day at any airport you care to visit. The theory of gravity works every single time you accidently drop a hammer on your foot. And so it is with evolution. And it IS a theory, a scientific theory, and to say otherwise is a LIE. The National Academy of Sciences (NAS), defines a scientific theory as “a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.” Furthermore, The NAS defines a fact as “an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as ‘true.'” The NAS considers evolution to be a both a scientific theory and a fact.
As for doing “some research”, I am willing to bet the books on my shelf about evolutionary biology are books you don’t have, and nor would you be aware that they exist. Which leads me to my next point concerning your “research” and the deceitful misinformation at the website you provided a link to. Here is the reality. The argument this site presents is one that only a creationist would think makes any sense. It contends that ‘historical’ science in no way matches the value of ‘observational’ science. This is bunk. Historical scientific evidence can be just as useful as observational or experimental evidence. Hence, we are able to accurately predict the return of a comet. We knew that Halley’s comet visited in 1835, and again in 1910. And so, as a teenager, I knew I would see it in 1986, and I did. Forensic science is heavily reliant on historical evidence.
Simply because the investigator was not there to see the criminal commit the crime does not mean that they are unable to infer what really happened by using
historical evidence. And if you deny the legitimacy of historical science, you also deny the legitimacy of cosmology, geology, paleontology, paleoanthropology, and archaeology.
The rest of your post touches on numerous points, not all of which I have time to address in depth. I will say however that you have some rather ponderous ideas. Evolution isn’t about random chance, far from it. To say that is willful ignorance.
If we are so “wonderfully built”, why is it then that so many mothers and infants die during childbirth.
I was hoping for a better proof of your God than “looking in the mirror” – the reflected photons of myself are hardly proof of anything other than a living organism with the ability to see.
I could care less what it say’s in a book written in the Bronze Age by people who thought floods and droughts were the cause of divine intervention, rather than the meteorological forces and events that they were.
And if you must find fault with yourself and seek paternal like comfort from a fictional character, that is entirely your problem. The historicity for the existence of your Jesus Christ is fragile, at best.
Liam, what makes you so special as to think anyone, other than your family and friends, should care for you? You live on a speck, revolving around a speck, on the arm
of a speck, in an ocean of other specks. Seriously, in the great scheme of everything, just how arrogant can you be to view yourself as special? You are not, and nor am I. Is it not enough that your family and friends know and love
you? It is for me. And do you really think that as a non-believer, as an atheist, that I have nothing to live for? That Liam, is very offensive, because you are insinuating that my children, my wife, my friends, my career, my dreams
and aspirations, are nothing to live for. And I can tell you that you are wrong, very wrong. I hope one day you are fortunate enough to father a child, and come to know in that instant just how much there is to live for, with or
without a belief in a god. Good luck.
Moving from this fruitless argument, I have one question to ask you.
Why are you here? Think about it, and respond back.
Liam was not saying that he is special. If he believes the same things I do, what he was saying was this: I was created by a perfect God. But I was born with a sin nature AND I chose sin. I am a sinner, but God has redeemed me. We Christians are NOT SPECIAL. Far from it. We are all sinners like yourself. The only thing that makes us different from non-belivevers is that we have a faith that Jesus Christ had died for us and that He paid the price for our sin and made a way for us to commune with God.
I couldn’t have said it better myself Maitlyn 🙂
Don’t dare label me with your imaginary sickness. If you loathe yourself, that is YOUR problem. I pity you your low self esteem. But don’t ever try to inflict it upon someone else.
One would wonder why a perfect God would create people, a planet, and a Universe, with so many imperfections. But I bet that is question you wouldn’t dare ask, because you are too afraid of the answer.
Scientists also said the earth was flat, that grain could turn into mice, and the earth was the center of the universe. These they called facts.
Yes Sadie, it is. The National Academy of Sciences (NAS) makes the following statement regarding evolution;
“However, scientists also use the term “fact” to refer to a scientific explanation that has been tested and confirmed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing it or looking for additional examples. In that respect, the past and continuing occurrence of evolution is a scientific fact.”
“If these theories were facts, why don’t we believe them anymore?”
For the obvious reason that evidence was found to overturn these theories, and therefore have them discarded. That is how science works. Do you understand this?
The burden of proof lies with you. You postulate the existence of something, so it is you who needs to offer evidence prove it.
However, I will say that, by definition, your God is omnipotent and omnipresent. Agreed? Why then do over 8 million children, under the age of 5, die every year? They die for a range of reasons – malnutrition, disease, birth complications. They die at the rate of 15 per minute. By definition, your god knows the children will die. Your god created the diseases and situations that will lead to the deaths of these children. And yet, they keep dying. Why does your God not prevent this? Is that not evidence enough for you to question, if not the existence of your god, then at the very least, it’s morality?
Thats great, Liam. Thank you for turning this debate into a place Jesus can be glorified!
1 Corinth. 10:31
Your responses to Madison were respectful and welcome. Even this comment was okay until you decided to indulge your superiority complex in the last paragraph.
Just remember you are on a one-strike policy with me.
Lets start by understanding what we are really talking about here.
Allow me to give a definition…
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the
systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and
natural world through observation and experiment.
Notice the words STUDY, OBSERVATION, and EXPERIMENT
cannot STUDY OBSERVE, or EXPERIMENT (to prove) Creation or the Big Bang
because (depending what you believe) they have already happened.
Let me list two more definitions…
Cause, principle or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith.
Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
see neither of us can directly prove Creation or the Big Bang are true
through STUDY, OBSERVATION, and EXPERIMENT. Instead, you have a belief
in something (the Big Bang) and I have a belief in someone (God).
Neither of these can be directly proven with science and so this is
really an argument of religions not scientific laws, theory or
But, notice How I said, “can directly prove””. You
see there are things today that scientist can STUDY OBSERVE, and
EXPERIMENT (to prove). These true works of science will either support
or disprove Creation or the Big Bang. That is were I believe Creation (I
must also add that I believe in the literal account of Creation given
in the Bible more specifically Genesis) has the advantage.
saying this not to win an argument but in hopes that by see that you are
pretty much in the same ship as us Christians you will be more open to
God Bless all of you and Haley thank you for your testimony.
p.s I apologize for posting this twice. I am new to posting on this site.
Your contrived misinterpretation as to the ability to apply scientific principles to the theory of the Big Bang is wrong, and fundamentally flawed. You can refer to my reply to Liam Siegler for a brief overview on the value and veracity of historical scientific evidence.
Specifically however, the Big Bang or ‘inflation’ theory, if correct, would provide us with verifiable and testable historical evidence to infer that it occurred. In doing so, this evidence would also debunk other cosmological theories, such as the ‘steady state’ theory. Without going into too much detail, the Big Bang theory, if correct, predicted we would find evidence of both low-level background radiation, and gravitational wave signals. The radiation was discovered in 1964, and the gravitational wave signals were discovered in recent years. And these are just two examples of what was predicted, and what was found.
So Keith, that is what we are “really talking about here” – facts, evidence, real scientific process, and not what some peasant wrote thousands of years ago. If you want to believe the peasant, and not the astrophysicist, that’s your blinkered problem. As for being on the same ship as Christians, well mate, I’m not even sailing on the same ocean.
You never saw the Big Bang take place, just as I never saw God create the world. So my friend, we are in the same boat.
Now, we can call the Big Bang historical science, but we can also call Creation historical science. As I said before about Creation and the Big Bang You cannot 100% prove either of these scientifically. You can only see if observational science supports Creation or the Big Bang (both historical sciences) See, historical science and observational science are different.
I didn’t say that historical and observational evidence are the same. Of course they are not. What I DID say is that both provide valid evidence for prosecuting and confirming any scientific theory.
The “were you there?” answer to a scientific theory is childish in it’s naivety and simpleness. Stop listening to Ken Ham.
Creationism is pseudoscience, and has been since it was first articulated in1802. Cosmology, on the other hand IS a science, because it offers hypotheses that are supported by repeated testing, as I described in my previous post.
“Once you reject evidence as a source of knowledge, you don’t gotta believe nothin’ you don’t like.” Tim Minchin
Since we are talking about the origin of life, here’s a page I’d suggest to read. It has many links and thing you should look up.
No Liam, we were not talking about the origin of life. We were talking about evolution, which is distinctly separate to abiogenesis.
Conservapedia is a Xtian website. Find something secular and I might read it.
You are struggling, Liam. Time to get educated.
No Liam, we were not talking about the origin of life. We were talking about evolution, which is distinctly separate to abiogenesis.
Conservapedia is a Xtian website. Find something secular and I might read it.
You are struggling, Liam. Time to get educated.
I am sorry if my comment above offended you. I didn’t fully develop what I was trying to say and it came out the wrong way. I apologize about that.
How am I struggling? Am I struggling because I choose not to believe that we were made by random chance? Or because I believe Jesus is my Lord and Savior?
I looked at a secular source called wikipedia. They just state everything as a fact. That is what they do.
The Rejected. Why are you here? What is your purpose coming onto this site? Please answer this question honestly. 🙂
You are struggling because you don’t understand what evolution is, nor do you understand what abiogenesis is about. You are struggling because you offer up propaganda style Christian websites that are deceitful and dishonest. You are struggling because you offer up straw-man arguments.
Conservapadia is NOT Wikipedia. Another lie from you Liam. And is Wikipedia and/or Conservapedia peer reviewed, on matters of scientific research? No. Do you know about the peer review process?
Your Lord and Saviour never existed. He is a fictional character, a ‘poster boy’, for what was then the new religion of Christianity.
I am here to help people like you, people who have been brainwashed. I am here to kindle your ability to think critically.
I have sort of been the “Quiet observer” of this rather ongoing conversation, and i am really sorry, but i must get involved in this. (if that’s Ok Liam. Feel free to tell me when to shut up 🙂 )
Over the Winter, i went to a… well… I’ll call it a program that thought about the Grand Canyon, and there is actual science that tells about the truth of the creation of the world. (I’ll just go with thereally big one. the creation of the world. The chances that a universe withmoving organisms on it that are a live and can think just being randomly
created are the same as the chances that a puzzle would be made by just shakingit. very slim, in fact almost inexistent.)
(Read: A case for a Creator. It’s an amazing book. Although I seriously doubt that you will.)
It has been my observation that people,who know they are wrong, fight the hardest. (Trust me. 2 brothers.) Ihave been praying for you profusely, and i think that you- perhaps in the past-may have been burned by Christians. Would you mind sharing your stories about church and what-not.
My King and Saviour did more then exist. He died for me. Which is the greatest, coolest thing in the history of ever.
Also,these people are my friends. Although I have never met them, they are my friends and my family in Christ. And I plan on sticking up for them.
I hope to be speaking with you!!
There is no need for you to “shut up”. Speak your mind.
If you have scientific evidence to prove the basic premise upon which creationism stands, then you should write a paper, have it put through the peer-review process, have a respected scientific journal publish it, and await a phone call informing you of your Nobel Prize….and I am being serious, becasue that is what should and would happen. Until then, your assertions, like any other bunk based, pseudo-scientific based assertion, mean nothing. Instead of reading creationist lies, I will continue to read peer reviewed scientific literature. You should do likewise. Then you wouldn’t make such silly analogies.
I fight hard becasue I am right. And I have everything to support my stance.
“And I plan on sticking up for them.” That’s nice. So what? It adds nothing to your argument. Group think and herd like mentality are nothing to be proud of.
I’m really glad that you don’t mind my rambling, i just would like to speak the truth in love, and that is just one of those things that i have to work on. Having friends around to keep me accountable (AKA, telling me to shut up) is a good way of doing that. Words are one of those things that can either make a day or ruin a life. And I would much rather ‘make a day’ then ‘ruin a life’.
Also, you are very funny. If you were to meet me, you would not think of me as a scientist. (lol.)
You are also correct in saying, that you have the freedom to defend your position. I can’t stop you!!
I have a question. Did you read “A Case for a Creator?”You should!!!
It also made me laugh a little about the way you over answered some questions and didn’t even touch others. (*shakes head with a smile.*) SO…. This time I will only ask
What facet of the world holds the most evidence for atheism? (Example: “I think that (blank) has the most scientific evidence for atheism because….) or what
facet of the world holds the lest amount of evidence for creation. (What part of creaton holds the least amount of evidence for a Creator.) …. That kind of stuff. Please be very pacific because I really love debating things like this.
Lastly, I read what you said to Caleb, about praying for children who are dyeing and stuff.
It sort of broke my heart that people (namely one named “the rejected”) can really feel that way about God. Thus I will be praying all the more not only for you, but that your eyes would be opened to the wonder of God!!
I (quite literally) cannot wait to talk to you again!!
Mate, bring it on. Go ahead, make my day….with your words 🙂
“and didn’t even touch others.”
Some questions are more worthy of an answer than others.
“What facet of the world holds the most evidence for atheism?”
The whole world. Everything around us, everything we see, hear or feel has a natural explanation.
There is not one shred of scientific evidence to support the role of a divine, supernatural agent for the existence of anything.
It breaks my heart that people waste their time praying. Don’t waste your time. Go do something useful, like read a book about evolutionary biology, or cosmology. It will be time spent well.
Goodonya Awseome, talk soon.
Would you mind explaining the Mutualism in Termites And Protozoa for me from an athesic point of veiw???
From what I can understand is that termites cannot survive without the Protozoa and vice versa. But they ‘evolved’ millions of years apart.
Sorry to trouble you, some more complex thing don’t just quite fit inside my tiny little brain. Only bigger things like miracles.
(I’m sorry is my sass attack hurt you. I realize that might not
have been very nice, so i ask your forgiveness.)
Been doing some homework, have you Awesome? I’m sure you can answer your own question easily enough. Google Scholar would not be a bad starting point for you.
If all you want to do is demonstrate you worship a God of The Gaps, then be my guest. I have better things to do than answer questions generated by the Discovery Institute etc etc. If you are REALLY interested, there are some great books, science journals and websites that will show you just how small the gaps are. And that those gaps grow smaller by the day. I’m sure your ‘tiny little brain’ will find it a lot more interesting, and of value, than reading scripture.
You didn’t answer my question.
You’re not interested in an answer. You don’t seek knowledge. Your agenda is to worship a God of The Gaps.
might i say the same about you. You currently have at least six teens writing to you, debating you, and we are not getting anywhere.
Rejected, I do serve a living God who fills in every gap, every canyon and every ocean. My God fills every mountian and every stream. he fills it with his love.
Rejected, i know that you don’t beleive this and that you will probably say something really mean and kinda sassy back, but God loved you.
You have a gap in your heart, and by the grace of God he fills it in. He takes your life and flips it around. He sets the captives free and wipes every tear from every face.
Rejected. Have you ever had someone die for you? Has anyone ever steped in front of a gun for you?
Jesus did. He died for your sins, and for the sins of the whole world. Jesus died on a cross, was burried in a tomb and then rose again three days later.
He died for the sick and for the healthy, for the rich and for the poor. For the despised and for the rejected.
He died for you.
Now i know that your going to come back and say something really cruel about orphans or about how ‘if God is a loving God, why do bad things happen” or something. But the Rejected, that who the God i worship is. He is love.
Rejected, may my God’s mercy and grace rain down upon you. May his face shine upon you and give you a peace that no amount of wandering will give you. and may you come to love Him with everything in you.
Yes. Way to speak the truth in love, brother.
Actually Sister, but what ever. My real name is Rachel. It’s Ok!!! 🙂 🙂
Oops. lol Editing last comment…
All cool. I get that a lot. (which i really ironic.)
I think you guys nailed it. I’ll give my response soon. 🙂 Thanks!
Hey, this is just me again. I take it that you have either given up, or are just taking a break to collect your thoughts.
Just wanted to let you know that even thought it has been ages since you responded to any of our rebuttals, i’m still praying for you!! I hope that you respond soon!! i’ve been doing more research and i’m dying to know what sassy stuff you’ll say back.
Hope to hear from you soon!!!!!! 🙂 🙂
Yes, I did. You just didn’t like the answer.
Mr. Rejected and fellow contributors to this discussion;
The idea that if presented with enough solid evidence for God’s existence, glory, etc., people will naturally fall to their knees and raise their hands in heartfelt worship is simply foreign to the Bible. On the contrary, from beginning to end, the Bible records example after example of God revealing Himself in clear, unmistakable ways to both individuals and huge crowds with the end result more often than not being those people choosing to reject His commands and promises. (e.g. most of the Israelites, most of the people that were eye witnesses to Jesus of Nazareth and His miracles) As I tried to explain at least a little bit in my last comment, unless God enables them to believe there is no amount or kind of evidence that will ever persuade them to want to know and love the one true God.
Praying that God will give Mr. Rejected or any other skeptic a believing heart, may be more important than trying to come up with answers to their scientific/rational objections.
“If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets they will
not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.” (Hopefully my last post helps explain a little bit of what I mean 🙂 )
This is nothing more than an attempt at apologetics. It amounts to worshipping mythical stories from an ancient book. If I were in your shoes, I would be wondering why your God was prepared to reveal itself on a regular basis in the Bronze Age, but refuses to do so now.
Please forgive me for my spelling or grammar, and I hope this doesn’t seem rude, but you seem to like to say things but you don’t back them up with actual facts just assumptions. And when you lack any information you turn to insults and ridicule. Like Grant i will not respond to any replies because i didn’t want to get into this anyways but i felt like i needed to. I doubt this will change anything but i thought I might try.
Where have I not backed something up with actual facts? Remember, the burden of proof lies with the believer.
Tim Minchin is a comedian.
That is a fact. An erudite comedian.
Okay. I agree with his comment. I just thought I’d point that out.
I am curious, if I can disprove evolution, would you listen?
Atheists say that no one can prove the existence of God.
But I guarantee you, no one can disprove the existence of God either, or prove the opposing view: Macroevolution.
Now when most people say the word “evolution”, they are referring to “Macroevolution”, which is the gradual change from one species to another. I guarantee you with 100% absolute certainty that Macroevolution has never been scientifically proven, ever. It is, at best, an unconfirmed hypothesis.
What has been tested and found to be worthy enough to be a Scientific theory is “Microevolution”, in which I am not against. Microevolution is the change of attributes within a species and within their genetic code (example, some people have brown hair, some have blonde, some people have squinted eyes, others have darker skin), sometimes to better fit their environments. Microevolution works, but, it cannot go farther from its original design then its genetic code allows. No genetic code in any species is vast enough to allow one species to transform into an entirely different species, as Macroevolution would like us to believe.
So when scientists say that they have proven evolution, they are either referring to Microevolution, are taking someone’s opinion that is not accurate, do not understand the data, or are misleading the general public.
Also, even if Macroevolution is possible, it deals with what happens to the universe, after it is there. But it never really addresses how everything began. You see, for the universe to start, something had to create it. You might say, well, the Big Bang (also known as the Mass Expansion Theory) created it. Well what created the Big Bang? Even if you can answer that with something else, then what created that something else?
In the real world, we never see things jumping into existence out of nothingness, but atheists want to make one small exception to this: the universe itself.
You see, both atheists and christians have “the burden of proof” as you put it in one of your earlier articles. But for atheists, there is no answer .
For christians, the answer is, God created the Universe. Richard Dawkins in his book The God Delusion, said “If you tell me God created the Universe, then I have the right to ask you, who created God?
But that is assuming that Christians believe in a Created God. We do not. We believe in an Uncreated God, who always was.
And even putting God out of the picture, I then have the right to ask you, “If the Universe created you, then who created the universe?”
Like I said before, both atheists and christians have “the burden of proof”. But for atheists, there is no answer.
You type very fast….or copy/paste even quicker 🙂
I challenge you to actually refute all that was said by both Caleb, Trent, and awesomesauce. Because you seem to have avoided those questions.
And the salient fact is this: if by evolution we mean macroevolution (as we henceforth shall), then it can be said with the utmost rigor that the doctrine is totally bereft of scientific sanction. Now, to be sure, given the multitude of extravagant claims about evolution promulgated by evolutionists with an air of scientific infallibility, this may indeed sound strange. And yet the fact remains that there exists to this day not a shred of bona fide scientific evidence in support of the thesis that macroevolutionary transformations have ever occurred. Wolfgang Smith, Teilhardism and the New Religion (Rockford., Ill.: Tan Books, 1988) , pp. 5-6. Dr. Smith, taught at MIT and UCLA.
The salient fact is that this comment is made up of lies. There are many transitional forms that show that macroevolution has occurred. In any case, the theory of evolution does not depend on observing macroevolution directly.
You prove my point. Thank you for proving that Atheists only believe what they want to and ignore scientific fact. The burden of proof lies with the believer. Isn’t that right, rejected? Then tell me, where is your proof, oh believer in Macroevolution?
The horns of titanotheres (extinct Cenozoic mammals) appear in progressively larger sizes, from nothing to prominence.
A gradual transitional fossil sequence connects the foraminifera Globigerinoides trilobus and Orbulina universa. O. universa, the later fossil, features a spherical test surrounding a “Globigerinoides-like” shell, showing that a feature was added, not lost. The evidence is seen in all major tropical ocean basins.
The fossil record shows transitions between species of Phacops, a trilobite.
Planktonic forminifera. This is an example of punctuated gradualism. A ten-million-year foraminifera fossil record shows long periods of stasis and other periods of relatively rapid but still gradual morphologic change.
Fossils of the diatom Rhizosolenia are very common (they are mined as diatomaceous earth), and they show a continuous record of almost two million years which includes a record of a speciation event.
Lake Turkana mollusc species.
Cenozoic marine ostracodes.
The Eocene primate genus Cantius.
Scallops of the genus Chesapecten show gradual change in one “ear” of their hinge over about 13 million years. The ribs also change.
Gryphaea (coiled oysters) become larger and broader but thinner and flatter during the Early Jurassic.
“With the failure of these many efforts, science was left in the somewhat embarrassing position of having to postulate theories of living origins which it could not demonstrate. After having chided the theologian for his reliance on myth and miracle, science found itself in the inevitable position of having to create a mythology of its own: namely, the assumption that what, after long effort could not prove to take place today had, in truth, taken place in the primeval past.” Loren Eisley, The Immense Journey (1957), p. 199.
This is a logical fallacy known as an ‘appeal to ignorance.’ Ignorance and denialism are not traits to be proud of.
“If complex organisms ever did evolve from simpler ones, the process took place contrary to the laws of nature, and must have involved what may rightly be termed the miraculous.” R.E.D. Clark, Victoria Institute (1943), p.
A quote from 1943 by someone who has an uneducated understanding of science and the laws of nature. I am underwhelmed. Yawn….
” `Creation,’ in the ordinary sense of the word, is perfectly conceivable. I find no difficulty in conceiving that, at some former period, this universe was not in existence, and that it made its appearance in six days (or instantaneously, if that is preferred), in consequence of the volition of some preexisting Being. Then, as now, the so-called a priori arguments against Theism and, given a Deity, against the possibility of creative acts, appeared to me to be devoid of reasonable foundation.” Thomas H. Huxley, quoted in *L. Huxley, Life and Letters of Thomas Henry Huxley, Vol. I (1903), p. 241 (1903). 63.
This one made me laugh 🙂
You mock what you cannot understand.
I mock indoctrinated ignorance.
“What is at stake is not the validity of the Darwinian theory itself, but of the approach to science that it has come to represent. The peculiar form of consensus the theory wields has produced a premature closure of inquiry in several branches of biology, and even if this is to be expected in `normal science,’ such a dogmatic approach does not appear healthy.” R. Brady, “Dogma and Doubt,” Biological Journal of the Linnean Society, 17:79, 96 (1982)
Oh dear, this poor chap doesn’t even have a basic understanding as to the underlying principles of science.
This is getting embarrassing. This is how you attempt to disprove evolution – seriously??
Again, you are such a hypocritehypocrite. Untill you can actually disprove my case, you have no basis for an argument. I see no use in stating scientific fact if you are too blind to see it. You would dispute that gravity exsists if it suited your purpose. I would be laughing if I wasn’t so concerned with your eternal destiny.
Disprove your case? And what case would that be? You said you could disprove the theory of evolution. So far, all I have seen is a series of cut and paste quotes from some undeducated try-hards. Science IS the most healthy of pursuits. It is a process that continually looks for refinement and correction. The evidence for evolution is, by any definition of the term, overwhelming. It is a ‘fact’.
“You would dispute that gravity exsists if it suited your purpose.” Disputing gravity would rest upon any evidence to suggest that it is a theory in error. So far, no such evidence has been provided, hence I firmly believe in the theory of gravity. Just as I believe in the theory of evolution.
I, along with others here, have disproven Macroevoution. If you ask anyone on this blog that has read our comments, they will all tell you the truth: I have disproven Macroevoution and Liam has disproven Macroevolution.
The fact remains that though science points to Intelligent Design and far away from Macroevolution, you are too blind to see it. You spout out atheist propaganda and evade all the statements in my and Liam’s comments that you know you cannot answer.
I see no point to even discussing the matter with you, a hypocritical man, who wastes his time trying to bully the teenagers on this site to believe in his close-minded faith in the unproven hypothesis of Macroevolution.
To Brett Harris,
I formally request that you block The Rejected on the grounds of:
Bullying, name calling, and disrespecting the contaminators on the Rebelution.
I believe I am correct in saying that the teenagers, here, are no longer engaged in this discussion, but simply annoyed at the hypocrisy.
– Trent Blake
Disproven macrorevolution? What? I suggest you write a paper about this and submit it immediately for the scientific community to peruse. You have done nothing of the like. All you have done is cut & paste a bunch of confirmation bias based quotes. Science does not point towards Intelligent Design – stop lying. STOP LYING. Even Judge Jones, the Bush appointed right wing leaning Christian overseer in the Dover Trial, could determine that ID is NOT scientific. I have provided you with information SUPPORTING macroevolution. I notice your lack of a come back. Maybe my eyesight is a little better than yours after all……
Yes, go ahead, attempt to have me ‘formally’ censored 🙂
“and evade all the statements in my and Liam’s comments that you know you cannot answer.”
Just exactly which comments are you referring to?
“Bullying, name calling, and disrespecting the contaminators”
Where did I bully?
I disrespect your views and opinions, and that is ok. I don’t disrespect you as an individual.
“The number of intermediate varieties which have formerly existed on earth must be truly enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory.” – Charles Darwin 1902 edition.
On the contrary, The Rejected, in fact there is MUCH evidence that points to God. Perhaps you are familiar with the law of entropy? The law of entropy states that anything organized tends to become disorganized over time. Also, there is scientific evidence that the universe had a beginning. I doubt that you would argue with me on that. And, anything that has a beginning has a cause. Think about it. That is true. Now basing my argument on these two truths, I wrote this argument for why God exists and that He created the universe for a class at school:
We live in a universe that is under the rule of the law of entropy. The law of entropy states that anything organized becomes disorganized over time. Since we can agree that the universe had a beginning and that it is in disorder, there is death, destruction, and dysfunction, it could not have started with disorder and come into more order than it started with. Likewise, since the world is in disorder now it must have started in more order than it is now, thus ruling out the possibility of nothing coming into something, disorder coming into order, which is what the Big Bang Theory states. And since nobody couldn’t have created something out of nothing, a scientifically impossible statement, we must admit that somebody created the world. And since our universe consists of space, time, and matter, that somebody couldn’t have been composed of space, time, or matter, thus ruling out the possibility of the somebody being one with a physical body living in time. So this somebody, God, lives outside of time as a non-physical being. This is how the law of entropy proves that God is real and that He created the universe.
Let’s say, hypothetically, that the Big Bang actually happened (which it didn’t) then what caused it? If you could possibly think of ANYTHING that could prove me wrong, I would be so glad to here it!!! Thank you for your time!
Your reference to entropy is nothing more than evidence to suggest you have a poor understanding of thermodynamics, and that you are getting confused as to exactly what entropy is. Entropy is not the same as disorder. The second law of thermodynamics deals with entropy, not disorder. It doesn’t mean that everything everywhere is breaking down. The law allows local decreases in entropy offset with increases elsewhere. It’s a pretty poor argument upon which to believe in a god. It’s certainly not ‘proof’. The use of entropy to point towards the existence of a supreme being is a common tool of the Christian. It shows a very shallow understanding of what entropy is.
If you have another theory for the begining of this universe, one that differs from the Big Bang, then I urge you to write a paper, get it peer reviewed, get it published, and prepare for your Nobel Prize award ceremony. In the mean time, find some text books written by theoretical physicists and learn about such concepts as quantum fluctuations. There is plenty in theses books that prove you wrong. Good luck with your education.
Ok, so since I obviously don’t understand what entropy is, would you care so supply a correct definition, because, according to the dictionary entropy is: the gradual decline into disorder.
I have a question. Do you have a value system that defines right and wrong?
Yes Sadie, I have a well defined sense of morality, and a code of ethics, just like you.
People were jumping up and down, and some were dancing?
Haha… Yes, Grant. There are churches where people jump and dance during the worship service. They would typically fall into the category of charismatic, though there are non-charismatic churches where you could see the same thing. I imagine in Heaven we will enjoy the huge variety of styles of worship represented by different cultures and denominations. =)
They actually fall into the category of being addicts – they are addicted to the brain chemicals generated by religious thoughts.
And keep imagining about heaven, because that’s as close as you will ever get 😉
Dear The Rejected, perhaps you are addicted to trolling, but we don’t allow it here. If you want to have a conversation, you are welcome. Disagreement is tolerated, but just being annoying is not.
Dear Brett Harris, group think is a dangerous mind set. It allows unsubstantiated and unreasonable views to prosper, unchallenged. So differing views present an unsettling threat to this status quo. Free yourself of superstition and think a little more critically; think for your self. And if you can’t do that, have the intellectual integrity to admit your faith for what it is – a human construct fueled by human physiology. All the best.
Since we’re talking about thinking, I think you completely missed my point. I have no problem with differing views, as I already stated. However, your inability to present your “unsettling” views in a respectful way is what has drawn my attention. I wouldn’t waltz onto an atheist website and start making snide remarks. It’s not respectful or effective.
Perhaps you think your approach will actually convince someone. Well, you’re wrong. You are being offensive and off-putting. Or perhaps you are just making fun of people with different beliefs for no other reason than that you enjoy it. In that case, you are jerk. Either way, I’d recommend you take a different approach.
For example, you could ask an honest question with no sarcastic or derisive barb on the end of it. For example, I am genuinely interested to know how you understand this concept of intellectual integrity. Would it not also be a human construct? In which case, why should I aspire to it?
Thanks for the reply Brett. The presentation of my views has not been disrespectful. But I’m certainly not going to sugar coat them. What I have said is true, and supported by research and evidence. Brain chemicals and neurotransmitters are released by religious thoughts. Fact. No sarcasm
I don’t care what Brett Harris would do. You waltz anywhere you like, it won’t impact on me.
Convince someone, here? I hardly think so. Hence my comment re: group think. But is that the only reason to present another point of view? Of course not. And I was happy to leave my original comment as solitary. It was you who decided to comment on my comment. The writer IS young, and maybe with time she will see her contribution as the naïve piece of work it is. Certainly no fellow believer will tell her that. Almost 300 people lay dead in Ukrainian fields, yet where was her “truly awesome God” when the separatist soldier pushed the button to send the missile on its way?
A few thoughts:
1) Perhaps you didn’t mean to be disrespectful, but you certainly have been. This is a website for young Christians. This is a post where a teenage girl is sharing a very personal story with a community of supportive individuals. Your original comment was the equivalent of crashing the party. I still think it was rude and I am the moderator, so I get to decide.
2) I find it interesting that you would blame this situation on me for responding to your original comment. It reminds me of the joke where the bully says, “Well, it all started when he hit me back.”
3) If you admit that you have no hope of convincing anyone here of your view, then you are trolling. You are not trying to engage in a real discussion. We don’t allow trolling.
4) I believe you that brain chemicals and neurotransmitters are released by religious thoughts. And yet, as a Christian, I honestly don’t find your argument compelling.
You cannot strip an activity of meaning simply because you can observe the chemical processes behind it. If that were so, then the act of firing a missile and killing 300 people is also meaningless, neither good nor bad. After all, it was nothing more than an electrical signal from the killer’s brain to his hand. For that matter, rape is simply a more complicated combination of signals and chemical processes.
Can you see what I’m getting at? Human activity has meaning beyond the chemical dance taking place in our brains. Religion may “stir the soup” — but so does our rage against rapists and terrorists, our love for our family and friends, and every other meaningful activity on this planet. The meaningfulness of Christianity is firmly attached to the meaningfulness of everything.
5) If you are actually interested in an answer to your question about how Christians reconcile the existence of God with the reality of evil and suffering, I could point you to several excellent books on the topic.
You may have noticed I deleted your last comment and banned you from commenting further. I made that decision when it became clear you have no interest in changing your tone or approach. You meet my definition of a troll and I always ban trolls.
Some more thoughts:
1)“Perhaps you didn’t mean to be disrespectful, but you certainly have been.”
I could care less.
“This is a website for young Christians.”
It is an open website that allows non-young Christians to view it and to join it. If you feel the need to discriminate and only allow fellow young Christians to comment, then that is completely up to you. Until that time however, I am entitled to read and pass comment on any post. The evidence suggests you “young Christians” need to have your world view challenged.
“a very personal story”
It is a naive and unsophisticated story.
“equivalent of crashing the party.”
Don’t be so precious.
“I am the moderator, so I get to decide.”
How godly of you.
2) “the joke where the bully says”
Now I am a bully and a jerk. Ad hominem.
3) “If you admit that you have no hope of convincing anyone here of your view”
You present a false dichotomy. There are other alternatives, and you have alluded to them.
4) “You cannot strip an activity of meaning”
You are pursuing a straw-man argument. I
was referring to the source of your religious feelings. Of course there is meaning. But meaning does not infer a divine presence, if that is what you are positing.
That is a different topic all together. You have ventured off topic.
“meaningfulness of everything.”
Meaningfulness would exist without Christianity, or any other religion.
5) I am familiar with Christian apologetics. I have no need for books about confirmation bias and faith based propaganda. And anyway, I am here to help you.
I want you to know I have been praying for you
today. 🙂 I respect you and your views; however as I was
looking at your comments, I feel prompted to say something, and I hope you don’t mind.
“Group think is dangerous” is it just as dangerous when it’s happening on a atheist blog? 😉 How is that group think different from our ‘group think’? Is all group think bad, or just religious?
In your naturalistic world view, molecules, atoms, brain chemicals are the absolute and final basis of all reality. So is it really such a bad thing if we were to say ‘these are what my molecules are inspiring me to believe’? Not to say that that I think your point is valid, just reminding you that your world view is nothing but chemicals since you reject the possibility of anything supernatural.
I just feel lead to have you ponder these ideas I have presented.
Hi Madison, thanks for your comments and queries. And of course, I don’t mind at all.
ALL group think is potentially dangerous, in ANY situation. In simple terms, it can lead one away from the right answer to a problem. This is where the values of critical thinking and evaluation are invaluable. Just because the majority believe in something does not necessarily make it so. It’s a logical fallacy, an appeal to authority.
You have presented a straw-man argument. I have not made a definition of what constitutes the final basis of all reality. They are your words. But to answer your question, I think an individual needs to be honest about what drives them to a belief, otherwise they are being dishonest. One’s belief is important, and therefore the true source of that belief should be important too. Would you agree?
Again, you present another straw-man argument. I do not reject the possibility of the supernatural. On the contrary, I would gladly accept the supernatural if enough empirical evidence were provided to support it’s existence. My skeptical mind is open to the idea, like all ideas. But extraordinary assertions require extraordinary proof. I won’t believe in something only because someone say’s it is so. Otherwise, I think the claim of being accused of gullibity is a valid one.
Your ideas that you have presented are not new to me. I have pondered them in the past, in numerous discussions, reading numerous books and articles, and listening to numerous people. But thanks for your input.
As for praying for me, why would you bother? If it is part of the divine plan that something should happen, then surely it will, prayer or no prayer. And if it is not part of the divine plan, then prayer will not change it. Hence, prayer is meaningless. Anyway, maybe something for you to ponder.
I may be a bit too late for this reply to reach you, but as you seem eager for input…
I have also questioned the power of prayer. As I watch my sister die, I have often been filled with confusion and anger because of the fact that my prayers haven’t seemed to change anything.
After a long period of confusion, I realized that my prayers were changing something. They were changing me. In many cases, the “divine plan”, as you mentioned, is not an unavoidable, pre-planned fate. God uses His children to accomplish His purpose; rarely (though not never) does a situation change solely because of prayer.
In my observation, for the most part, God uses prayer to change people, and people to change situations. Prayer is not meaningless. It simply may have a different purpose than we often expect.
Also, if I may ask…is there a story you wish to share behind your name? Commenting with anti-Christian comments on a Christian blog with a user-name like “The Rejected” seems like begging for the opportunity to share. I’m willing (as I am sure many of the caring people on this blog are, as well) to listen.
I’m here to listen too!
I understand the point you are making. I can understand how prayer can assist the person doing the praying. But it is a closed loop system, there is no external agent or influence. I think you need to be a little more honest about the lack of effect of your efforts to pray. You seek divine intervention, and none is forthcoming…ever. And it is exactly the same result when others pray. But you are quite correct to suggest that people change situations. Indeed they do, and they do so without the influence of a non-existent supreme being.
There is nothing to share regarding my name. You are fishing in the wrong place. It is the result of nothing more than a mildly humorous anecdote.
Forgive me, I’m rather late to the conversation.
Let me be honest. Your first two comments were posted in an offensive, disrespectful and irreverent tone. However much you may not care about the way you came off or how other people took it, it still required to be addressed.
I’d like to address the statement you made. You believe we seek divine intervention. You also believe and claim that none is forthcoming…ever. I can hardly believe that you did not get any comments disproving that claim. Be that as it may, I’d still like to share a few stories with you, if you’d be willing to listen.
I work with a 4 year old girl who was born with a severe heart defect–she was born with only half a heart. This is a rare condition. Half the parents opt for comfort care.
This child, at 4 years old, has gone through 5 surgeries. She is a miracle.
I know a lady whose son was in a very severe car accident; close to death, had the person who reported the accident not come by at the time that he had, her son would be dead.
Another young man I’ve met recently came to the Lord after a very similar accident, which he miraculously was not killed in.
My mother is also evidence of divine intervention, whether asked for or not. She had a horrible childhood growing up. Really, really bad, almost as bad as it gets. She was in several situations that brought her very close to death, and God saved her life several times.
There are other stories all over the world of God’s divine intervention.
But it will be impossible to portray to you the workings of an all-powerful God if you do not believe in Him.
I believe in an all-powerful God, all-knowing and always present. I believe your assumption that people change situations without the influence of a ‘non-existent supreme being’ is ultimately in the wrong.
I also believe that one day, on the return of Christ, every knee shall bow, and by that time, it shall be too late for many people. I hope and pray that you are not one.
Do you know what the definition of a miracle is? You don’t appear to.
Surgery – just how is having surgery a miracle? Surgery is performed countless times a day, all over the world.
Car accident – All that shows is that someone was in the vicinity of the crash, and reported it. How is this a supernatural act or event?
Your mother – I am willing to bet that the situations that almost led to her death were averted for quite explainable, rational reasons.
None of these anecdotes are examples of a miracle.
There are no stories of your God’s intervention. There is no intervention. The stories you refer to are a product of chance and circumstance, and all very normal within the constraints of the natural world you and I both live in.
What would be refreshing is this – ask yourself why it is that if your God really did intervene, then why doesn’t he/she/it do it ALL the time. Furthermore, why should there even be a reason for an omnipotent and omniscient God to intervene. Why does your God allow car crashes to occur, or infants to be born with half a heart, or for your mother to have lived a diffifult early life. Apply some CRITICAL THINKING and don’t be so gullible.
And what if I am too late? Are you trying to scare me? Fear and coercion are as old as the hills. It may work on you, but I could care less.
One more thing:
If you would look at the following website, they present good, scientific evidence of a supreme, supernatural Creator and Master of the universe:
If I can refer you to the new Movie, GOD’S NOT DEAD. It gives both points that have been talked about here. The Atheist who insists there is no God, and the Christian who says that, “God is not dead.” I’ve done all the research and so did the writers who did the movie. Even the actors who played in this movie delved into the books, and word to see what they where really talking about. I know it may not persuade you to follow Christ… but maybe it will help you understand the position a lot of us CHRISTIANS have when it comes to our faith. I have friends who are Atheists and some who are Wickins. It doesn’t stop me from praying for them and witnessing to them. They even ask me questions about my faith and what it is I believe. God has done great things in their lives and in my life, I pray that you will be able to see that He is real and He lives in all of us if we will just accept Him.
No thanks, I have no need for Xtian propaganda.
What “lives in” you are brain chemicals and neurotransmitters, such as serotonin, cortisol, dopamine. Religious thoughts trigger the release of these chemicals into your system. I understand your position a lot better than you do.
I love that movie. In fact, that’s where I got a few portions of my case for Christ in my other comments. I would recommend God’s not Dead to anyone.
It has become clear to me that you have absolutely no interest in modifying your tone or approach, despite the fact that you are interacting with a moderator. I can only assume you want to be banned, in which case, I will oblige you.
However, seeing that Madison has responded I will give you one last chance to demonstrate that you can engage with our community in a respectful way.
And lest you decide to adopt a martyr complex, let me remind you that your “unsettling views” has never been the problem here. If you get banned it’s because you refused to be a respectful guest on our website, not because you disagreed with us.
If I can refer you to the new Movie, GOD’S NOT DEAD. It gives both points that have been talked about here. The Atheist who insists there is no God, and the Christian who says that God is not dead. I’ve done all the research and so did the writers who did the movie. Even the actors who played in this movie delved into the books and word to see what they where really talking about. I know it may not persuade you to follow Christ… but maybe it will help you understand the position a lot of us CHRISTIANS have when it comes to our faith. I have friends who are Atheists and some who are Wickins. It doesn’t stop me from praying for them and witnessing to them. They even ask me questions about my faith and what it is I believe. God has done great things in their lives and in my life, I pray that you will be able to see that He is real and He lives in all of us if we will just accept Him.
Yes. It’s really interesting to note people’s different styles of worship. Probably the important thing to keep in mind is that just because the church is jumping around, doesn’t mean that they are having a spiritual experience. For many years, whenever my family visited those more contemporary churches, I felt rather embarrassed that I didn’t do that too. But lately I’ve learned that “Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” So you could have a new convert that seems completely emotionless, but goes through real repentance, and you could have a new convert that cries and falls on her knees but has no change of heart. So, now, I’m not ashamed of being a traditional, sit down in church type. =P It will be cool to see the combination in Heaven!
Welcome to the family, Haley! Thank you for sharing your story!
I read the comments. Something like this is bound to get atheists on the line. They obviously don’t like seeing someone that was once like them get saved by Jesus.
What a wonderful story, Haley! Your testimony is wonderful. 🙂 I will be praying for you as you continue to grow in your faith! Don’t let other’s opinions make you doubt or even shamed about the fact that you are a child of God!
So cool! I’ll be praying for you!
Wow! Amazing story! I am so so so happy that you found Jesus even when the people around you have not. 🙂
ok so there has been a lot of debate over morality and right and wrong so i thot maybe i could throw another question in the mix? and this is an honest question altho i think i know the answer… so whats wrong with homosexuliaty? why cant someone be gay and christian? it seems like in the past people always thot it was wrong because it was so ‘differnet’ and gay people were ‘weird’. that doesnt seem to be the case anymore as i know some gays who are really kind. and then i see people in the church flip out and really hate. not hate as in i dont support you but hate as in i hate you. so as a christians what makes this wrong or anything for that matter? im not saying there is no wrong, but what makes right and wrong? is it because i dont like it or because i think its wrong? all opinions welcome…
o i was just reading that and noticed a problem. it could be inferred that i am gay from that comment and that is most certainily not the case. sorry for any confusion
I don’t want to get into an discussion about this. Although I recommend reading the verse below.
1 Corinthians 6: 7 -19
Let me clarify my standing a little bit… I in no way whatsoever support homosexulatiy. ( I also have a terrible time spelling, sorry 🙂 ) I actually take a very strong stand against it. the question I am trying to raise is what makes something (anything) right or wrong? I have seen more churches than I care to remember be torn apart by people saying that what they think is right and what someone else thinks is wrong. so what defines right and wrong? Some say that rap and heavy metal in a Christian genre are wrong but what makes them right? is it not true to say someone or something is wrong means that I think I know better? are right and wrong defined by my own convictions or what I always believed or what I have been taught or how my culture thinks? as a Christian how do you decide what is true or false or right and wrong? just a few questions that have been rolling around in my head and I needed a venue to ask them so…
Easy, our moral guidelines come from God and His word.
Whether some believe it or not the world’s moral guidelines came (what’s right and wrong) come from God’s word the Bible. Say someone murders someone. Is that person not guilty and should be punished? How did we come to that moral conclusion? Our moral law comes from God. Nothing else could have given us that. The reason we see so much evil happening is because the culture is falling away from God and His word.
Here’s a verse to sum up the last part.
John 3: 19-21
“Easy, our moral guidelines come from God and His word.” No Liam, you are wrong, yet again. Morality existed before your Xtian god existed, before Xtianity existed. Care to explain that one??? Mmmmm???
“I actually take a very strong stand against it.” Which makes you a bigot.
naturally. disagreement means hatred. totally get what your saying bro must kind of be hard on yourself always hating though… i work in a tire shop and actually fixed a flat for free for a gay person just because. see just cuz i dont agree with their lifestyle or actions doesnt mean i go around calling peoplenames. peace
“I actually take a very strong stand against it.”
big·ot : a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc
Jess jesse, you remain a self proclaimed bigot. And yes, I hate bigot’s.
so what makes my opinion unfair again? or is it unfair cuzlike a person like you wont tolerate someone like me?
What is wrong with being homosexual?
is that a a legit question or like another aurgmet? cuz like im done arguring and misspelling everything and i am gonna go do something for someone else. take a break man and go do something nice for someone you do or dont like.
“I in no way whatsoever support homosexulatiy. I actually take a very strong stand against it.”
Your words. So of course my question is legit.
You haven’t argued. All you have done is make a discriminatory statement.
Jess, ignore the rejected. At this point he is just looking for an argument.
I think you are referring to churches like the Westburow Baptist Church who hate homosexual people. They will also say things like “God hates sinners” and things like that. They are extremists, in my opinion.
The Bible says that homosexual behavior is wrong. (Leviticus 20:13). It also says that lying is wrong. It says adultry is wrong.
But Romans 3:10 says that “There is no one righteous, not even one.”
Homosexuality is a sin, but there is nothing that makes it somehow worse then intimate relations outside of marriage, or other sins.
So if someone hates someone because they practice homosexuality, they have to hate someone who commits adultery.
Homosexuality should be addressed the same way Christians should address other sins: We should not condone it or say it’s okay, but we should not yell at them, cuss them out, call them trash, or hate them. We need to “speak the truth in love” (Ephesians 4:15).
Romans 5:8 says that “While we were still sinners, Christ died for us”.
No one, not you or me, deserve to go to Heaven, because of our sin. But Christ died for us (and rose again – John 20:1-31). He died for everyone, including the adulterers, the homosexuals, the liers, and the thieves. (John 3:16 & 1 Timothy 2:3-4).
I hope this helps! God bless,
Lets start by understanding what we are really talking about here.
Allow me to give a definition…
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the
systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and
natural world through observation and experiment.
Notice the words STUDY, OBSERVATION, and EXPERIMENT
You cannot STUDY OBSERVE, or EXPERIMENT (to prove) Creation or the Big Bang because (depending what you believe) they have already happened.
Let me list two more definitions…
Cause, principle or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith.
Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
You see neither of us can directly prove Creation or the Big Bang are true through STUDY, OBSERVATION, and EXPERIMENT. Instead, you have a belief in something (the Big Bang) and I have a belief in someone (God). Neither of these can be directly proven with science and so this is really an argument of religions not scientific laws, theory or hypotheses.
But, notice How I said, “can directly prove””. You see there are things today that scientist can STUDY OBSERVE, and EXPERIMENT (to prove). These true works of science will either support or disprove Creation or the Big Bang. That is were I believe Creation (I must also add that I believe in the literal account of Creation given in the Bible more specifically Genesis) has the advantage.
I am saying this not to win an argument but in hopes that by see that you are pretty much in the same ship as us Christians you will be more open to the truth.
God Bless all of you and Haley thank you for your testimony.
Just a little Biblical food for thought in light of the ongoing conversations. (Obviously if you reject the authority or usefulness of the Bible, I trust you will you will be apathetic toward what I’m about say.)
Jesus’ parable of the “Rich Man and Lazarus” (Luke 16) concludes
with Abraham issuing a telling correction to the rich man who finds himself
tormented in Hades following his self absorbed life and recent death. The rich
man has requested that Lazarus return to life to warn his relatives of the
horrible fate that awaits them if they do not turn to God. Abraham first
replies “They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.” In other words,
Abraham declared that the man’s relatives already had all of the
information/evidence they needed because they had access to Scripture. The rich
man stubbornly disagrees, insisting “No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to
them from the dead, they will repent!”
There is something very reasonable about that objection, isn’t
there? Is it crazy to think that when trying to persuade someone of a
supernatural/spectacular truth that the surest path to success is to provide
supernatural/spectacular evidence (vs. placing confidence in a collection of
writings from the Bronze Age)?
That’s not crazy. It has a very common sense ring to it. However,
Jesus concludes His instructional story with Abraham’s definitive declaration:
“If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets they will
not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.”
Jesus affirms a critical truth here that is evident from beginning
to end in the Bible and is utterly relevant to the ongoing banter on this site
between believer and skeptic. Namely,
man’s belief in/affection for God does not hinge on the quantity or quality of the
Self-evidence that He provides them. Can
you, will you hear and believe God’s Word? Whether His Word is audible (as with
Moses), carved onto stone tablets, walking next to you in the incarnate Christ
or neatly bound in a book – miracles or no miracles – will you believe His
word? That’s the burning question and
the bottom line.
Many of the Israelites that God personally and dramatically rescued
from enslavement in Egypt flatly rejected His laws and leading despite being eye
witnesses to His visible, audible, tangible (scientifically) irrefutable
existence and power.
Most of the people that were eye witnesses to the miracles of
Jesus – which could not be denied –hated Him and His teaching. A fact made
obvious by those same eye witnesses demanding His crucifixion.
And the final book of the Bible, entitled The Revelation of
Jesus Christ, we do in fact see Jesus revealed to the whole world in His
fullness. He is visibly present and beginning His long promised judgment
against those who reject Him. If the
rich man’s reasoning was correct, we might expect to read that with Jesus
standing right before their eyes in all His divine glory – “they will repent!” Sadly, but not inconsistently, they instead “cursed
the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent
and glorify Him.”
The Bible flatly rejects the notion that man is an objective,
clear headed, unbiased observer waiting to weigh the reasonableness of God’s existence
and attributes based on the evidence provided to him. “The mind that is set on
the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it
cannot.” Romans 8:7
Jesus did not teach that clear evidence or lack thereof is
the determining factor in men believing that He was who and what He claimed to
be (i.e. the Son of God and the only Savior). So we should not hang our hopes
of any skeptic becoming a Christ follower on the fact that we have sufficiently
answered their objections and presented them thoughtful evidence. Consider some
snippets from John 6:
“…they asked Jesus, ‘What sign will you do that we may see
and believe in you?’”
(Jesus speaking) ”…you have seen me and yet do not believe.”
“All that the Father gives me will come to me.”
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws
“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at
all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are
some of you who do not believe.”
“…I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted
to him by the Father.”
Jesus made these remarks to a crowd that knew he had just
miraculously converted a small amount of food into more than enough to feed
5,000ish people – as well as to his own close group of disciples who had
witnesses many of His miracles. Point
being, He noted the stubborn disbelief of people who had been given a great
deal of evidence that He had supernatural power and emphasized that their
disbelief was rooted in a spiritual inability (vs. lack of supporting evidence)
that only God could overcome. A skeptic can have a literal front row seat to evidence of the Divine but can and will remain opposed to that truth unless God graciously removes the blinders from his eyes/mind/heart. The Bible is replete with examples of just that – and we should not expect anything different in present day apologetic/evangelistic efforts.
Volumes more could be and have been said about this subject –
I just wanted to throw in at least a mention of it as I have been reading and
posting in this conversation. 🙂
They are all man-made, fiction based stories. The version of the Bible you read today reads absolutley nothing like the original text. The original manuscripts no longer exist. There have been countless rewritings and translations. Much of the NT is now considered to be a forgery. Anything written about Jesus was done so decades after his death. There are no first hand accounts of his life. There are no non-Xtian writings referring to JC. The Bible is full of non-sensical contradictions. So who cares what is in the Bible? It has no place in the contemporary, modern world.
I’d like to say first of all, that I can totally understand where you are coming from. I’m not going to claim to be ignorant to the reasonableness of some of what you have been saying.
Secondly, I really hope I’m not coming across as rude or cynical. I really do respect you as a person, and I care for you enough to do what some would consider ‘rude’; sharing with you what I truly believe to be true. 🙂
But, before I go on, I must ask you; are you sincerely interested in this? Or are you just looking to argue with those who you disagree with? Because, if you are not sincerely interested in this, nothing we can say will ever mean anything to you.
Now, I would really recommend you check out this blog post;
I think he does a pretty good job at summing up a lot of what I would like to say, and he is far more qualified than I in this field.
You say that there are no non-Christian writings referring to Jesus. What about Cornelius Tacitus (A.D. 55-120), and Josephus (born about eight years after Jesus was crucified), who were not Christians, yet spoke of Jesus as being real in their accounts? Gary Habermas does a great job at using unbiased sources to prove the existence of Jesus and the resurrection. I strongly encourage you to look up some of his debates; he deals with a lot of the issues you have brought up and uses very good supporting evidence.
And what if you are right; what if the Bible is all just a myth? Then I quote with along with Pascal, that if the Bible is false, then all I have done is live my life according to principles that have done me no wrong. But if I am right, there is a lot at stake for you.
I thought you might use Josephus and Tacitus as reliable sources. They are not. Tacitus is considered as a flimsy and unreliable source by modern scholars. And remember, it was Tacitus who claimed that a cow could talk! As for Josephus, the passages you refer to were written centuries after his death. They are forgeries.
As Ibn Warraq says “Despite the fact that there were approximately sixty historians active during the first century in the Roman world, there is remarkably little corroboration of the Christian story of Jesus outside of the Christian traditions. What there is, is very inconclusive and unhelpful – Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, the younger Pliny.”
” But if I am right, there is a lot at stake for you.”
Oh really, and just what is at “stake” for me?
Go to that blog post I gave and chat with Michael Patton, who can have a meaningful dialogue with you. I encourage, no I challenge you to offer your criticisms there, and stay around to hear thoughtful responses by well educated-well read Christian thinkers . I dare you. :)Your desire to ‘help us’ here, seems insincere. If you are looking for answers, would you really come looking for it on a blog by young teenagers who have are just beginning to really think about these issues? I’m not sure what good you are doing on here with your sometimes blunt, arrogant sounding critiques. I would think it would be much more beneficial to go to that blog and interact with Christian thinkers who have read what you have read, wrestled through the questions you have and yet come out still believing instead of trying to push off balance very young believers who have not even lived long enough to pursue the intellectual academic inquires you have mentioned.
Obviously you know what is at stake, but if the Christian scriptures and world view are true, your rejection of the Creator and Savior will leave you justly damned. If you’re right and we all just stop existing at death, great. Nothing is lost for me.
“I’m not sure what good you are doing on here”
I am here to challenge people, like you, who would hold such a disgusting and putrid idea in their head that if someone doesn’t believe in the same imaginary-friend-in-the-sky that they do, and that you do, they are consequently “justly damned”. How so am I “justly” damned? Under what process, exactly, have I been found guilty? And just what exactly have I been found guilty of?
Your world view has, at it’s core, a rather nasty and vile under tone and base level argument – agree with me or you will suffer. Wow, so much for a kind and loving religion, god and group of followers…..
“Nothing is lost for me.”
Except, of course, your dignity.
I want you to know that I care about you and am praying for you. I genuinely hope you come to faith in Christ. That being said, I take great umbrage with how you have addressed Madison W.
You say that she has lost her “dignity.” This is coming from a grown man who obviously invests a great deal of time arguing with teenagers on a religious blog. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW RIDICULOUS THAT IS?
I happen to know Madison W personally, and I can assure you she only the best intentions at heart. If you want to continue embarrassing yourself on this blog, go ahead. But stop with the snide, personal comments. It is ridiculous and childish.
You do yourself no favors.
Agreed Keaton. I wanted to say something like that, I just didn’t know how to do it without being offensive. You nailed it down the right way. 🙂
“I want you to know that I care about you and am praying for you.”
That’s nice. But so what? Your praying might do some good for you, but it has done nothing for me.
“and I can assure you she only the best intentions at heart”
Then tell young Madison not to infer that I am ‘justly damned’ simply because I don’t believe in what she belives in. That sort of thinking is not dignified, nor is it to be tolerated. It is the basis for discrimination and bigotry.
Wow, Madison. I never thought of it exactly that way, but you are absolutely right. Thank you for the comment. It encouraged me. God bless,
I find this story so incredibly inspiring! I too was raised an Atheist until I was 14 years old and my friend started telling me all of these amazing stories from the Bible…I went to church that weekend for the first time ever and have loved it ever since! This post reminded me to always pray for those who are lost!
Amen. It’s inspiring to hear stories from people like you and Haley. I am so glad that your friend had the courage to tell you about Jesus.
Thanks Kaitlin and God bless,
I just had a revelation of my own today and I realize no convincing of my own will help you, but only the Word of God can. So i give you this verse from the Bible:
For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You can’t escape God, no matter how hard you try. He will follow you wherever you go and will bring you out of trouble (If you except His help). I will be continually praying for you.
Your Dear Friend,
wow. That is powerful, Caleb!!!
The word of God? The Bible is man made. Wriiten by men, many many men, over thosands of years. It’s messy, tacky, immoral and contradictory. It is best left in antiquity, from where it comes from, and where it belongs. Join us here in the 21st century.
Instead of praying for me, waste your time praying for the 15 children who will die in the next minute, somewhere in the world. Better still, stop wasting your time with trying to talk to a voice in your head, and ask yourself why it is that your loving God allows these children to die, and why your God allows such things a diseases, malnutrition and neonatal complications to exist. Go on, I dare you.
Sorry, your probs tired of me!!!!
Ok. so. Imagine a perfect world. No Potholes in the roads. No starving childrens. No evil. (sounds nice. Right now in my corner of creation there is a police chase. like, right out my window.)
that would rock right???
well… then what about heaven? What would happen to hope? it has been my experance that bad things happen to give you a hope of heaven.
PS. I noted that in your above comment. You capitlized the “G” in God. We’re making progress!!!!!!!!!
Written by men inspired by God
And those men were eye witnesses of Jesus’ Ressurection.
You need to acquaint yourself with the principles of historicity.
My God allows those things because if life were perfect where would the need for God be?
Ah, beautifully done – apologetics at it’s purest 🙂
I want to Thank you Haley for sharing your testimony. You will never know the amount of hope it gives me. I know some of the comments can be discouraging, but know this… God will bless those who step out in faith, even though they face condemnation. Stand tall and know that what you posted has made at least one persons day and given them hope. If by one voice the heavens rejoice.
I want to thank you for providing us with the opportunity to strengthen our skills in defending our faith. It is important that young Christians develop the confidence and skill to support their beliefs. The discussions you have had with us thus far have been great exercise for the young Christians for whom this site was developed. I cannot speak for the rest of the forum, but as far as I am concerned, for this reason, your questions and comments have been and are still welcome, on this blog post and others.
I’m curious as to why a forty something family man would be so determined to encourage us to question our faith?
Because of the damage and discrimination that religion causes in the world. It is the enemy of critical thinking.
First off, really cool name! 🙂
Also though, I am curious, why don’t you believe in Jesus?
Nobody died on any cross for me. What a sick concept. I could care less if a fictional character from the Bronze Age rejected me.
I know it sounds sick and horrible. I mean, who would want to go through all of that? But Jesus did, not because He wanted to, but so that we wouldn’t have to go through worse: eternity in the lake of fire. He is providing a way out, a gift, through an incredibly selfless action. All we have to do is take that gift. God bless you, T.R.
Jesus didn’t exist.
It’s too bad you believe that. You’re missing out a lot. 🙂
Guess that all depends on your point of view.
I can’t help but notice how you vehemently label religion a cause of “damage and discrimination” yet bring up archaic conspiracy theories to explain away the appearance of Jesus as a historical figure. It truly seems that, whether you know it or not, you are searching for something – something to compel you. How else can we explain you, as a secular adult, frequenting a blog for religious teenagers? Why, may I respectfully ask, are you even here? You ask for empirical proof and receive it, but it never seems enough. Faith is not superstition. Because we can never be intellectually 100% sure that something is correct, we have to have faith to cover that gap.
There is much compelling evidence for Christianity – even the physical and psychological makeup of human beings attests to a Divine Being – yet you require it to be completely proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt. That will never happen. You have to take a step of faith. I pray that Jesus will open your eyes and compel your heart!
Does manuscript evidence really depend “on your point of view?” Hmm…
You’re absolutely right Keaton. Atheists have a double standard. There is no evidence to support their beliefs whatsoever yet they still believe it, and then they brand Christians as “blindly believing”. Does this make sense?
Actually, if you think about it, it does. Atheists know what if there is a God, they will be held accountable for their actions in the end, so they do everything possible, (even create false evidence, like arranging the bones of entirely different spices together to make it look like a half-man, half-ape skeleton) to convince themselves that God is not necessary for life, and thus does not exist. But real scientific evidence points to God.
“But real scientific evidence points to God.”
You are an addict to the brain chemicals in your system.
“you are searching for something”
Well, you keep telling yourself that, if it makes you happy.
“How else can we explain you, as a secular adult, frequenting a blog for religious teenagers?”
To help you, obviously.
“You ask for empirical proof and receive it”
Um, no, I do not. Please revise what the term ’empirical proof’ means. Or maybe you are referring to a proof I have missed? If so, please show me this proof.
“we have to have faith to cover that gap.”
Are you sure you want to run with that line of thinking? Seems a little scratchy to me 🙂
“There is much compelling evidence for Christianity”
Yes, of course there is. Christianity is everywhere. But there is no compelling evidence for what Chtistianity is based on.
“even the physical and psychological makeup of human beings attests to a Divine Being”
Don’t be so brainwashed. Have a good, hard think about what you have written there. Now go away and do some reading…you know, text books etc.and not scripture.
“You have to take a step of faith.”
Gullibility needs faith. And faith is belief without thinking. Not something to be proud about.
“Does manuscript evidence really depend “on your point of view?” Hmm…”
Do you know of the term ‘historicity’? Hmm…
There were many ancient non-Christian and pagan historians that wrote about Jesus existence and resurrection including Flavius Josephus (c. AD 37- c. 100) You can search him online if you need too
The passages ‘wriiten’ by Josephus and that you refer to, are forgeries. They were written centuries after Josephus lived. Thanks for the offer to search for Jopsephus online, but seeing as I know more about him than you do, maybe you should search online.
I did search him online, early scholars were the ones to call it forgery, and today more serious scholars say it to be a mix of original writing and new ones. Sorry about the message above i missed your message below. 🙂
You didn’t search hard enough. Book 18, Chapter 3 from his tome ‘Antiquities of the Jews’, the words you are referring to, is a work of forgery. It was inserted by Christians at a later time.
Well since that is “forgery” take a look at Tacitus’ writings book 15 chapter 44 refers to Jesus’ crucifixion by Pontius Pilate. And a quote from a few people you may know or don’t know.
“I don’t think there’s any serious historian who doubts the existence of Jesus …. We have more evidence for Jesus than we have for almost anybody from his time period.”
– Prof Bart Ehrman, University of North Carolina in an interview by The Infidel Guy
“we can no more reject Jesus’ existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. ….. In recent years, ‘no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus’ or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary.”
The late Michael Grant, eminent historian of the Roman Empire, in Jesus: an historian’s review of the gospels
There were more quotes coming i ACCADENTLY posted before i was done
Hey, Caleb, I will many times make spelling errors in my posts. What’s cool is the edit button the Rebelution has on their site, so we can fix any grammatical errors. God bless, man,
I totally agree! Here are some more quotes.
To doubt the historical existence of Jesus at all … was reserved for an unrestrained, tendentious criticism of modern times into which it is not worthwhile to enter here. -Günther Bornkamm
Of course the doubt as to whether Jesus really existed is unfounded and not worth refutation. No sane person can doubt that Jesus stands as founder behind the historical movement whose first distinct stage is represented by the oldest Palestinian community. -Rudolf Bultmann
An ancient historian has no problem seeing the phenomenon of Jesus as an historical one. His many surprising aspects only help anchor him in history. Myth and legend would have created a more predictable figure. The writings that sprang up about Jesus also reveal to us a movement of thought and an experience of life so unusual that something much more substantial than the imagination is needed to explain it.
Emeritus Professor Edwin Judge, Ancient History Research Centre, Macquarie University, Sydney, in the Foreword to The truth about Jesus by P Barnett
Historical reconstruction is never absolutely certain, and in the case of Jesus it is sometimes highly uncertain. Despite this, we have a good idea of the main lines of his ministry and his message. We know who he was, what he did, what he taught, and why he died. ….. the dominant view [among scholars] today seems to be that we can know pretty well what Jesus was out to accomplish, that we can know a lot about what he said, and that those two things make sense within the world of first-century Judaism.
EP Sanders, Oxford & Duke Universities, in The Historical Figure of Jesus
Caleb. Read A Case for Christ. I was reading it the week, and all this is in there!!!! (And more. A mind boggling amount of more.)
Haha, Okay I will! Thx for telling me!!
Today, nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which has to be weighed and assessed critically.
The late Graham Stanton, Cambridge University, in The Gospels and Jesus
“There were many ancient non-Christian and pagan historians that wrote about Jesus existence”
That is untrue. Please don’t lie.
Oh I haven’t would you care to look it up on the web. I did put that specific person on there so if you were unsure you could see that as proof. If that doesn’t satisfy you then you need to do a little more research. Next time before you respond so quickly would you mind to research it a bit as to not make assumptions like this one.
What makes you think I am unsure? I am not. You made an assumption about Josephus – and you were wrong. And yes, you have lied. Like I said, I already know more than you about this subject. You are the one who needs to do the research. Good luck 🙂
Granted, some Christians, but not all, do a lot of damage, and there is some discrimination. In this age where toleration of everything and anything is expected, anyone who does not agree is condemned as a hater; having specific moral convictions puts us(meaning Christians and a few others) in front of the firing squad quite often. But then I ask you if you discriminate against us for having beliefs, for standing strong in conviction, for disagreeing, and not all of us do it unpleasantly, rudely, disrespectfully, or haughtily, are you not doing the same thing you are accusing us of?
Also, Christians have done many good and wonderful works to help humankind. For instance, Abraham Lincoln and the Emancipation Proclamation. Would you, sir, say slavery is wrong? Immoral, perhaps, or inhuman, owning another human being as a piece of property? Abraham, William Wilberforce, and many others, very many of whom are and were Christians(I would direct you toward looking up an organization called Loose Change to Loosen Chains) have gotten involved in this fight.
Now, given the fact I do not know if you live in or are a citizen of the United States, I do not know how you look at the USA, but the pilgrims came here for freedom from persecution because of their beliefs. Many of the founding fathers were also Christians, and many US presidents have been as well.
Now I ask you, what good things have atheists brought this world?
Sir, you have repeatedly told us you have done extensive research on evolution and the evidence presented for its existence, claiming that we do not know as much as you. Now, this last part may be true concerning evidence presented in favor of evolution, but there are people we know of and respect who have presented evidence against it. I know you have implied a few times that you do not believe this evidence. That is your decision. If you refuse to consider the facts presented by both sides, you have no right to call us ignorant, for in that case you are as ignorant in one respect as we may be in another.
I would ask you also, what harm does it do to have hope? To believe differently as others? I have faith that God does exist. I choose to hold to and share my faith. As you have chosen to do. This is our choice, and as I cannot see how continuing this conversation will benefit anyone past this point, I will refrain from commenting after I respond to your reply to this post.
Sadie you hit it! I just gave my last response. If T.R does not respond respectfully,(to all of our new comments) then there is absolutely no reason to talk to him.
I agree with you Sadie, The Rejected thank you for giving me insight on where I lack information and for the chance to get better at debating things that matter. This conversation has taught me to discover weak points in other people’s statements. I am taking debate this year and this has helped me prepare for that class.
Ok. i just needed a random place to write this, so here it goes. Do you think we scared TR off???? Either that, or i’m just dying to know what he has to say.
Ik, I’m wondering the same thing. That would be really sad.
The way I see it, there are three possibilities:
1. He realized that the teens on the Rebelution aren’t as ignorant and gullable as he had formally believed, and/or he has moved on in search of another Christian group that he can try to “aggressively” convince of atheism.
2. He was blocked from posting comments on the Rebelution because of his rude comments.
3. He saw that the evidence was against evolution and for Christ, so he is considering the truth of Christianity.
I sure hope it is the third one.
God bless, guys.
I hope it’s the third as well, although I am convinced it’s the 1st by the way he was acting.
I’m thinking definitely first, but i pray third.
Or… he’s on vacation in the African Jungles looking for a case against creation and doesn’t have WiFi.
Yeah, could be, but lets not judge too quickly, it’s only been 5 days. 😛
Only five long and weary days. Five days for God to totally change his world.
I hope so. 😀
I’m DYING to know if you blocked the rejected. (Well… not actually dying, i’m still just fine, but you know what i mean.) That would rule out opinion #2.
I’m pretty sure he would have given us a heads up if it happened. 🙂
impatient is my middle name. seven days is a long time.
(actually impatient isn’t my middle name, I’ve just always wanted to say that.)
Yeah. I’m beginning to wonder whether we made an impact. Because if we didn’t he would continue to insult and ridicule us. But you never know.
I think that Jesus might have. One of my favorite quotes says this, “show Jesus in every thing that you do. When necessary, use words.” (Dunno who said it.) I think that we worked our hardest to show Jesus and that it did make a impact. Read over the events. At first he was really mean and cruel, then it kind of slowed down and started being more inquiring and more… i don’t know. It was different.
Liam, i have something to share with you. we didn’t change a thing. Jesus did!!! 🙂 🙂
I hope you’re right, Awesome. He did seem equally mean and angry the whole time, to me but I hope you’re right.
Sorry, that seemed a little bit like a prayer so i thought i would say that. (I’m really good at being random.)
I think that if all else fails, The rejected helped a bunch of teens from all over the world get to know each other and get to explore Science in ways- I know i wouldn’t!!!!!
All things work together for good!!!
Yeah. It kind of forced the what? Ten or so, of us to unite for the cause of Christ. I am very thankful. Praise God!
I have no clue what you meant to say. #imsolost
What i meant to say was that even if TR doesn’t come to know Jesus as his Lord and savior, and even if all this fighting was in vain, It kind of ended up being a God thing!
I was just pointing out that 10 or so of us worked together to defend Christ. Was I really confusing? If so, sorry. I will try to be more careful with how I say things. God bless!
No, your fine. I am really worn out so not much makes sense right now. yeah. cool moment!!
“We have defended Him and showed that He exists and cares about all of us, including The Rejected.”
Meanwhile, back in reality, an infant dies every 3 seconds. What a caring God….. 😉
Agreed my friend!
I guess all three of us are on at once. 😉
Hey Awesome Sauce! Nope, I didn’t block The Rejected. It’s possible he’s on a trip or had something come up in his life that has prevented him from commenting recently. God bless you!
I would like your input about how I’m talking to The Rejected. Am I being overbearing or giving a superior attitude impression? Please be brutally honest, because I want to reflect Christ with how I speak (or type) especially if I am going to go into full time ministry and I trust your judgment.
Trent, (I hope you don’t mind me answering!) I think you have done a great job at being gracious to the Rejected! I never once got an overbearing or superior attitude vibe when reading your comments. On the contrary, I feel like you (and everyone else!) have done a great job! 🙂
We all know that the comment section of a blog is not the best means of communication. Yet, I think it is very important for us to engage our culture and have CONVERSATIONS, not yelling matches! I’m encouraged to see fellow teenagers engaging, not just being rude back. I’m so glad you guys have been the ones to be discoursing with The Rejected.
And that’s a great idea to ask for input! Brett, please feel free to give feedback to anyone of us, if you have any! 🙂
One of my Sunday school classmates is a supporter in evolution. That sort of confuses me because, he’s not only in church every week, but part of the worship band. It seems like a contradiction. Any thoughts?
Well, before you form opinions on this whole thing, I think it’s very important for you to actually talk to him and see if that is what he actually believes, if you haven’t already. Find out
for sure, because who knows, there may not be anything to be concerned about. 🙂
Thanks, Madison. I appreciate it.
You’re welcome, Trent! 🙂
Here’s thought – maybe he’s not quite as brainwashed as the rest of you….mmmm?
Thanks!!!! Now i know that i can still wait on the edge of my chair.
Hehe, this one made me laugh 🙂 I like you Awesome, you’re funny.
To be funny that is.
3. Definitely NO.
But thanks for wondering Trent. I enjoyed reading that.
The thing is, the teens here aren’t gullible or ignorant about lot’s and lot’s of things. You are all intelligent and nice people. Unfortunately, each and everyone of you has a part of their brain so hyped up on God that it clouds your view of reality, and that’s a shame. And I doubt any of you know what it is like to live in a secular society, a society where your God, the other god’s, and all religions, are kept at arm’s length, and are not allowed to intrude on day-to-day life. Those societies actually exist, and do so happily and morally.
Thanks for the complements. I like knowing that i’m not gullible or ignorant!!!
Thanks Sadie 🙂
Wait, why are you thanking me?
Wait, wait, I get it. Your welcome!
Scared off? 🙂 I just had to work Awesome! You know, pay the bills….
I’ll soon be doing debate (probably next year) but this year I am going to be doing speech. 😀
Are you in Speech and Debate?
“Wow!” is a serious understatement. Your testimony brings to light where God’s heart is. People who are already Christians are vastly important to God, but people who are still searching and are hurting should be a much bigger focus to those who already have the truth in them. For too long, many Christians, (including myself sometimes) are content to just socialise with one another, time and time again, instead of helping those in need.
Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of the brothers of mine, you did for me.” (Matthew 25:40, NIV)
We need to step outside our comfort zones to tell others about Jesus’s free gift, so that they have a chance to escape the cage of sin and doom, that we, ourselves were once in. If no one told me about Jesus, how then would I be able to be rescued from eternal death? It’s a sobering thought for me.
Once we are rescued, we should be so grateful and excited that we want as many others as possible to receive this awesome gift. Because if it wasn’t for Jesus, we’d all be in the same boat.
Thank you Jesus for you amazing gift!
Thank you Haley for this inspirational article!
Hello all Creationists participating in in this discussion,
Here is an article I would like you all to read to give you insight on what we should and shouldn’t say during conversations like these. 🙂
To the Rejected,
Was your last comment to me a taunt? Really? 😛
We are fine with having a fine respectful conversations, but you have gone over the top on your rudeness and insults. Let me remind you the only reason you are still here is because other teens are engaged in a conversation with you. If they weren’t you probably would be banned. So please act respectfully to these young teens (including myself) while you engage them in conversation no matter how opposing their views are to you. I really appreciate it! Thanks! 😀
Btw, I will respond to all your arguments in due time. 🙂
I think that was a taunt. T.R. isn’t interested at all in the facts. Only atheistic propaganda.
Hey, Liam, I am curious, are you by any chance one of the moderators?
No Trent, I am not one of the moderators. Although it would be cool if I was! 🙂
Yeah. Would be really cool. You’re certainly patient enough with T.R.
Oh, I’ve had to have lots of self- control from keeping me from biting back or starting a big scientific debate (which I could have if I wanted. :P) With people like that, you’ve got to ask God for patience and love. It’s been hard, especially when that person continuously insults you.
I’ve been impressed on how you all have dealt with this conversation. Awesome! Keep it up! 🙂
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every Spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you, is greater then the one who is in the world.
1John 4:2-4 (NIV)
Well Liam, don’t hold back, bite away. And keep digging up those links from Answers in Genesis – SO scientific of you. BTW, your pal Trent, the one who has impressed you, is now ‘dealing’ with me by inferring I am the ‘antichrist’ 🙂 How lovely.
This argument is spiraling out of control and is getting neither of us nowhere. I have tried to help, but I fear I have only made it worse. If this argument does not stop now it will never end and will be a continuos back and forth. I will still pray for you, and I wish I knew your real name so you wouldn’t feel so rejected.
PS: Romans 5:8 “But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” I hope you decide to pick up a Bible someday and read it! I am sure that everyone here would gladly help explain any questions about Christianity if you were to ever ask them!
You know my real name – The Rejected.
I have picked up a Bible. I have numerous copies. It is one of the many reasons I am an atheist.
Sinning is an imaginary illness with an imaginary cure, for people who can only find fault with themselves. Seems kind of sick to me.
Powerful story Haley. I wish I had a testimony as good as that one!
I used to feel the same way. I felt that because I wasn’t a drug-dealer turned Christian or had an intense vision, that my testimony wasn’t as good as some other people’s. I mean, I was born and raised in a Christian home. Nothing could be that interesting, right? Wrong!
You see, God has used my testimony to help lead at least 3 people to Jesus, and by human standards, my story isn’t at all impressive. But God can use each and every one of our testimonies and each and every one of us. He has specific plans for me that only I can do and He has specific plans for you that only you can do.
So, don’t dismiss the impact your personal story of how you came to Christ can have on other people. God bless you, Caleb,
Thx Trent for the encouragement!
OH MY WORD! I know how u feel. I’m a home schooled PK, so there is, like, no testimony. “I came to know and Love Jesus when i was, like, 6…” sometimes feels a little lame, u know???
Anywhatwho, what is amazing is that God has put me places (A Baby shower for a Sundanese baby. where in I got to talk to a girl from Egypt about Homeschooling. That was one of the coolest things i’ve ever done!!!) (In a Church plant) (In a Home school Co-op) (Literally, on Facebook.) Where i have gotten so shine 4 Jesus in ways that, i never would have imagined.
Something that i’ve been having to remind my self is that God has a plan for my life, even when it seems pretty outlandish to believe that. God has a plan for everything- including a testimony that may seem ‘lame’ or ‘boring.”
God Has a Plan!!
Extremely well done, Liam; you are correct in saying we only scratch the surface of the arguments that could be made here, but you did a great job of presenting a good number of them here. It’s sad that The Rejected up to this point and perhaps even afterward has not considered the evidence and arguments that have been made and presented against evolution. But then again, it is not within our ability nor is it our responsibility to convict the heart of another human; that ability and duty belongs to Another. We have done what we can. Now it is The Rejected’s turn.
Again, great job, and thanks for your support.
Until the next time
Nice!! That is a lot of research!!
I guess. It took awhile to find all the articles…but it was worth it! Thanks! 😀
Oh wow! Liam, I thought my case was convincing but yours is irrefutable. Very nice!
Thanks Trent! 🙂
Hey Trent and Liam,
I need some help. I blog, and recently i got chewed out by a friend because i compared ‘swearing’ to ‘murdering’ (I know, i can be a little harsh.) but i really feel like saying even semi bad words is wrong. (Such as “darn” and “golly.” ) Because at one point in time they were really bad.
anyway, i’m trying to think straight and tell my friend what i think, and i need a little help. You two were the first people i thought of.
Hey Awesome Sauce,
I have to take a break of the internet for a week or two, but I will be there once I can! Hope everything gets settled. 🙂 See ya soon.
Well, I can see both sides of the story. Some people say all sin is the same. Some say some are worse then others. It’s hard to figure out, who’s correct. But this is my opinion, based on what I’ve seen and heard:
God hates all sin. He does not grade on a curve. Sin is sin and the punishment is the same: spiritual death. So Adolf Hitler and I are in the same boat. We both have sinned. That is why Jesus, both the Son of God and God himself, died on the cross to take away our sins. The only difference between Hitler and me is that I have been saved from the clutches of sin, and so my life, and my ability to fight sin is changed for the better. So, to God, all sin is punishable by death. Weather that’s murder or swearing.
Now, even though God doesn’t grade on a curve, man does and I believe rightly so. Murder is punishable by death, where as burglary it’s prison time, and cussing and lust are not punished by man. We cannot control every evil thought someone has, every disrespectful cuss word someone says, because we are not God. It is not within our power or within our responsibility. We should not play God.
We can however ask/try to conTrent someone not to sin in the non-man-pushishible ways, but ultimately, it’s up to them, and they will face the consequences to their actions, weather on Earth or at the Judgment seat of Christ.
I hope this helps and keep in mind that this is just my opinion. Check the Bible in case I’m wrong in any way.
Thank you so much.
I was feeling like a really horrible person this morning, mainly because taking God’s name in vain is something that i think is so wrong. I mean, he is our Creator, how horrid is it for people who are made by a creator, to curse his name??? And yet people at my church were getting mad at me. (sigh. Mondays.)
Taking the 10 commandments literally, is something that i think the church of America needs to work on. (Myself not dis-included.)
Oh. Its Ephesians 4:29, James 5:12 and Colossians 3:8.
I’m kind of agreeing with your opinions right now!!!!
ya I know cussing is wrong and something I struggle with myself, where I work I hear it all day every day… but I don’t think I would put it on a level with murder. murder is final. that is someone life that has been ended and you cant change that, so I don’t think I would go that far with it,,,
Ok, (so sorry about this, it’s gonna get a little wordy.)
In the first chapter of Romans, Paul is talking to the people in Rome, about there Christian lives. in Chapter one verse (do do do) 29 it says “they are filled with every king of sin, evil, selfishness and hatred. they are full of jealousy, murder, fighting, lying, and thinking the worst about each-other. They gossip ad say evil things about each-other, They Hate God. they are rude and conceited and brag about themselves…..” It goes on for awhile.
Paul put “Lying, jealousy and Fighting” all on the same line as Murder. so why not swearing??
In the ten commandments, the THIRD commandment is “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in Vain.” It’s kind of set in stone. (Sorry. really lame PK Joke.) number six is “thou shalt not murder.”
Even though, Yes, people can get forgiveness for Murder, the same way God gives grace for swearing, that doesn’t make it right.
All sin is the same in God’s Eyes. Bad. (REALLY BAD.)
One of the verses i found yesterday was this, “When you talk, do not say harmful things, but say what people need- words that will help others become stronger.” (Ephesians 4:29)
People need to hear The Good news- words that help others become stronger. Words that bring people down (Ok. I’m meaning swear words, because sometimes people do need a kind nudge in the right direction.) don’t usually end up helpful.
Told ya’ it was gonna get wordy and i’m so sorry, because it’s probably going to take about nine years to unravel what i just tried to say.
ok so i kinda get what your saying but think about it from this angle. lets say your pastor used to cuss really bad before he became a christian and its been struggle for him for a long time, kind of like a thorn in the flesh, but he is and has gained serious victory. now lets say at a church potluck or something someone spilled a whole pot of steaming split pea soup all over him.( i really dont like split pea soup btw) and he kinda lets lose a few cuss words without really thinking about it. it used to be a habit and sometimes he cusses. now he doesnt want to. and he repents every time and is truly sorry. ok so he messed up were not gonna kick him out of the pulpit or anything. now lets say this pastor used to have a habit of killing people. but he has gained victory but sometimes he messes up and just has to go shoot some people without thinking. but he repents and we shouldnt kick him out of the pulpit should we? now i know that totally redicouls. but if there on the same level shouldnt they have the same consquence? i think that some sin does have worst conquesences than others. whoever offends a little one in Christ its better that a millstone be hanged around his neck and he drowns. the bible never says that about say coveting. im not saying that coveting is any better but i think especially when harm is done to another person it is a lot more serious. I’ve been cussed out plenty of times and anymore i dont really mind, depending on who it comes from but if someone kills me i think i would mind. 🙂
jus a couple random thots
I totally agree with the whole split pea thing (*BLECK!*)
OK, just a couple random question to help me. Where is that millstone verse found??? And how come this murdering pastor isn’t in jail. (Sorry, that was random and completely irreverent. )
I think i understand now where you are coming from now, thank you for helping me widening my perspective, and for making me think. (And i totally will be thinking long and hard.)
Ok. now this is going to be random. What about the whole “Mercy” and “grace” thing??? As Christians, we are called to give out mercy and grace.
ok so the millstone word is used in the king james and it is found in Matthew 18.6 Mark 9.42 and Luke 17.2 and im not sure what your question is about mercy and grace… maybe elobarate on that one a bit?
Sorry (again) that was me pondering and asking hypothetical questions.
I was reading in the book of Romans, and it said that “We are saved by faith not our actions. and as Christians, we are called to extend mercy and grace, to people like the pastor in your hypothetical question.
Right now, I have so many questions buzzing thought my head. and only one semi-ok answer. (Don’t you hate it when that happens???)
In the eyes of humans, different sins (yes, i said sins) have different punishments. If i stole, i would go to jail for a shorter amount of time then if i murdered, and if i coveted in my heart, i probably wouldn’t go to jail at all.
But those are all still sins. Just because in the eyes of humans it is ok, it still doesn’t make it right. (Proverbs 14:12)
I’m not here to judge the world, or to condemn it. I can’t do that. That is Jesus’s job, i’m just here to shine his light to all of creation, though my words and my actions. (such as giving out mercy and Grace.)
Because i can’t condemn the world, or judge it (Please don’t think that i’m perfect, because i’m not and sometimes i do judge. Ok. a lot) I can’t make the rules. (Although that would be cool.)
I’m so sorry to put you thought all this rambling!!!
ok so im still not sure what the question is… but thats ok lets see if i can guess. what makes sin in Gods eyes worse than others? think about david after his whole thing with bathsheba etc see how God brought terrible conquesences to him and his family? then think about say when moses hit the rock instead of talking to it. he didnt die but he also didnt get in to the promised land. God forgives sin if repented of but he also gives conquescenses… now here is my question. this is honest and one i have fought with for quite some time. If God is good, is merciful and just holy and righteous and all that yet he strikes the guy dead for touching the ark of the covenat but lets terrible world leaders live a full life. He lets sick people who prey on little kids to live but kills a guy for touching the ark of the covenant! im almost scared to ask that question for fear of doubting my saviour, but it needs to be asked. i choose to believe God is good even when i dont understand or really dont want to. but anylight anyone can shed on that is most welcome1
You know, that is a brilliant question.
What about Job?? The bible says this about him. “In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.” Yet he had everything he loved taken away from him, and he almost died. (And his friends where a big help.)
What about Abraham??? He comment adultery!!! yet, nothing really bad happened to him!!!
What about…. Ok, i’m going to stop and skip the the ark. I will warn you, i’m one of those people who if i have a question about anything, i will stay up until i find an answer. So… Ask any question about the ark, because i stayed up All. Night. Long. trying to figure this out. (Ah… coffee is really amazing.)
They only people who could touch the ark were the Levites- people set apart to be priests of the temple.
The ark was created to be carried by Four poles that were put in four little strap thingys made out of gold- it was: “They set the ark of God on a new cart and brought it from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill.” (sorry, about half of that was random stuff that u probably don’t care about.)
So, the combo of “Uzziah” (I’m hopping that’s spelled right…) Not being a priest, and the ark not being carried the way God told them to….
I’m not… like…. Billy Gram or Paul the apostle, so please don’t think my random thoughts are law.
Oh!! here is a really helpful link. (http://www.gotquestions.org/Uzzah.html) that is what i used to check this. (Like is school you know… Oh. School. *Yikes!*)
Ok question about the ark… Where is it!!!! Lol just kidding. Wow all that infos pretty cool thanx! I checked out it blog it’s pretty cool. I think u will understand when I say ur mind works in amazing ways!! One guy told me it’s ok I’m crazy that my secret was safe with him… And everyone else who knows me… 🙂
Oh… I am crazy. it’s an unarguable fact!!
And i’m so glad that you like it!!! 🙂 🙂
I enjoyed talking with you!!!!
until next time!!!
Romans chapter 4. we are saved my faith not by actions.
I am pretty sure the Bible does say somewhere in the new testament that foal language is bad, but I forget where. I believe it’s in one of the letters after the Corinthians. So, it’s not something that Christians just made up. Hope this helps.
Is the argument over or are you still in the discussion. If so could you give me the link to the article and I’ll head over there and see what I think. 🙂
Thanks… But yeah… Debate is over (For now.) I ended up deleting that post, because im not a big fan of that kind of controversy.
Thank you thought!!!
Trent, all the points are quite refutable. And they are not Liam’s case – he copied and pasted them.
To those who have been interacting with The Rejected (and anyone else :P);
I thought you guys might like checking out this link;
It’s by a really great Christian source (It’s a coffee shop that I attend for weekly Theology talks. I have really benefited from their teachings!), all about things Christians say that hurt their credibility. While you are on there, check out some of the posts on apologetics or those specifically dealing with atheists. There is some great material there!
Haley, thank you so much for sharing your story. It is a blessing. I just started reading this blog so I can learn. I don’t know as much as I feel I should. I want to know how to answer people like The Rejected (just for example) when they want to know what evidence I have for what I believe in. Thank you everyone for what you wrote.
Here are some great Christian resources Abby. 🙂
Read some of these articles, that how I got my start on apologetics! 😀
Thanks Liam! I’ll definitely look at the sight. My mom has a bunch of books from Answers in Genesis. Thanks again!
Hey, Liam, may I quote your comment, here, in an article on my blog?
You certainly can Trent. 😀 Thanks!
To, The Rejected,
Nice try, but your comment is nonsense. And this is how I know: The First Law of Thermodynamics: “Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only change form.”
And the Second Law of Thermodynamics: “The entropy of the universe must always either increase or remain the same. It can never decrease.”
What is entropy? Here is the definition: “A measure of order that exists in any system.”
These are scientific laws, and the hypothesis of macroevolution goes against both.
I have already addressed the concept of entropy in messages I posted weeks ago. Using entopy is a common tactic of the Christian, and shows a general lack of understanding of what entropy is.
Macroevolution has been evidenced. I provided a list. But of course you will stick your head in the sand. So be it.
Answers in Genesis, AGAIN???
LOL. Come on Liam, you can do better, right?? 🙂
Yep, Jesus was real alright. Um, well, actually his Hebrew name was Yeshua. And it was a pretty popular name it would seem. In fact, tombs of 71 Yeshuas/Jesus’s were found a number of years ago. I bet you didn’t know that, hey Liam??
“How did life originate?”
God did it 🙂
Ever heard of abiogenesis? Ever read any articles about the research into abiogenesis? I have. I have these articles. I have references and web locations for them. Interested, Liam? Want to get an education, Liam? I can help you.
If you really believe the world is only 6000 to 10,000 years old, then you are not equipped to handle any answers I might have about your list of silly (copied and pasted btw) questions. You simply do not understand how the real world works, and trying to educate you, whilst tempting, is beyond my resources or patience. You are so brainwashed and hyped up on God that it is basically pointless. I feel genuinely sorry for you, and angry at your brainwashing parents. They have done you a disservice. Maybe one day you will grow up and learn to think for yourself, but I seriously doubt it. Good luck Liam – you’ll need it. As does your creationist mate Trent.
Like I said before, I know you are no longer interested in the facts, so, I see no point to discussing the matter further with you.
Stick your fingers in your ears, close your eye’s, and keep shouting “But I have faith!!!” – and it will all go away, right? Wrong 🙂
Hello everyone! I hope the extensive discussion has been helpful to all parties, but this post is nearly two months old and the conversation is entirely off-topic. I feel like everyone has had a chance to say pretty much everything they wanted, so I am closing the thread. Thanks for your participation!